Author Topic: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn  (Read 201538 times)

Babasmas

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2016, 09:19:21 pm »
True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.
Nope, there already was a thread talking about this. i'm going to quote myself. (Here)

The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2016, 05:41:55 am »
maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that

sleepy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2016, 05:49:52 am »
True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.
Nope, there already was a thread talking about this. i'm going to quote myself. (Here)

The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?

That's useful, but the post I quoted has nothing useful at all. If it were easy to implement a point system I'd be all for it, but a) it'd probably involve some kind of coding, which isn't super simple to implement b) it'd be really easy to abuse a point system, and c) if the person who posts the track for review is lazy and doesn't feel like giving someone points, even if the feedback was good, the person leaving the feedback would get no compensation.

And also, out of curiosity, what French producer's forum are you talking about?

maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that

That could be easily abused too. A person could just leave a ton of stupid comments like "cool track" or "how do I sound like skrillex" and easily become a low mid in no time.

Dichotomy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2016, 06:11:14 am »
SMF (the forum web software) has mods for polls http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll It might take a little bit of coding, but it seems feasible that polls could be programmatically tracked to preclude people from creating a new topic in a board without exceeding a threshold (set number of completed polls in the board).

Also, couldn't polls be auto-created to simplify feedback? Like 1 - 10 for different categories... (an off the cuff list)
Instrument Selection
Arrangement
Overall Impact
Overall Production Quality

Another thought - the poll would be mandatory (for the reason mentioned above), and a written comment section would be available for feedback outside the scope of the poll.

Yeah, that could work, buy I just feel like keeping things simple is the way to go. The mods and admins or whatever are busy people and coding for a forum just takes too long. Especially if it hasn't been done already and you need to come up with a feature yourself. All we need is a simple edit to the sticky, maybe other stuff can be implemented later but I don't think there's a real need for it.

I was under the impression that Mat Zo doesn't write PHP modules for SMF and moderate the board himself, but has placed capable, trusted people in a position to do this. Rather than speaking to the ineptitude you apparently perceive, I'll say that I think they could do it, no problem. Also, speaking as a web application developer of 15 years, I'm not just dreaming that suggestion up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow... or even in 2 weeks. I understand there's a "throwback" feel to this Forum, but I find it hard to believe they would insist the technology be identical (versus the camaraderie or community involvement) to some antiquated web forum user experience of years past. I'll stop before I volunteer my personal abilities... of course. I don't personally know Mr. Zohar or any of the Administrators or Moderators. A "lemmie fix your site for you" PM would be rude and presumptuous.

Yes, the stickies probably need to be edited... I've seen one moderator dismiss a request for genre tagging with the reasoning that people should use a subject format that's not recommended by the sticky (it's something similar, but neglects genre).

maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that

I've already seen a ton of vapid, conversational "posts" that belong in a chat room. I seriously don't mean to insult all of TPF... this is observable... not a terrible thing. I don't believe it makes sense to offer incentives or enhancements to frequent posters (other than the increased opportunity to receive "Honor").
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 06:25:11 am by Dichotomy »

sleepy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2016, 07:25:08 am »
I was under the impression that Mat Zo doesn't write PHP modules for SMF and moderate the board himself, but has placed capable, trusted people in a position to do this. Rather than speaking to the ineptitude you apparently perceive, I'll say that I think they could do it, no problem. Also, speaking as a web application developer of 15 years, I'm not just dreaming that suggestion up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow... or even in 2 weeks. I understand there's a "throwback" feel to this Forum, but I find it hard to believe they would insist the technology be identical (versus the camaraderie or community involvement) to some antiquated web forum user experience of years past. I'll stop before I volunteer my personal abilities... of course. I don't personally know Mr. Zohar or any of the Administrators or Moderators. A "lemmie fix your site for you" PM would be rude and presumptuous.

Yes, the stickies probably need to be edited... I've seen one moderator dismiss a request for genre tagging with the reasoning that people should use a subject format that's not recommended by the sticky (it's something similar, but neglects genre).

Whether or not they can do it isn't the issue here. The point is that there doesn't need to be anything done beyond an edit to the sticky to have a more effective discussion in those sections. Keyword here is "discussion." If the emphasis is on "camaraderie or community involvement" and not technology, then it wouldn't make sense to develop more code-based, less personal way of reviewing music, especially not one that has such a huge potential for abuse.

Any system that's based on doing x amount of computer monitored tasks can be abuse easily. And having it be that way doesn't encourage better feedback either.

Having to write feedback and then link back to it when asking for feedback yourself puts you in a position where you're better off not writing bullshit. It's way harder to put together a crappy review of a song than it is to randomly fill out those polls you suggested. And when it's your own post that's on the line, you're more likely to leave better feedback.

Dichotomy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2016, 08:27:03 am »
Whether or not they can do it isn't the issue here. The point is that there doesn't need to be anything done beyond an edit to the sticky to have a more effective discussion in those sections. Keyword here is "discussion." If the emphasis is on "camaraderie or community involvement" and not technology, then it wouldn't make sense to develop more code-based, less personal way of reviewing music, especially not one that has such a huge potential for abuse.

Any system that's based on doing x amount of computer monitored tasks can be abuse easily. And having it be that way doesn't encourage better feedback either.

Having to write feedback and then link back to it when asking for feedback yourself puts you in a position where you're better off not writing bullshit. It's way harder to put together a crappy review of a song than it is to randomly fill out those polls you suggested. And when it's your own post that's on the line, you're more likely to leave better feedback.

It is clear you did not understand what I intended to communicate. I apologize for not being sufficiently articulate. No, it is much easier to contrive a "crappy" review than to fill out well constructed polls. You haven't seen single word feedback? or even single smilies as feedback? You've mentioned the ease of this while dismissing some other reply. Speaking for myself, I don't restrict my life to doing only what's needed. I find an ideal, and strive for it. I'd quote where you said my suggestion could work, but I know you remember. Your suggestion already exists (you can review the posts of others, as I have done with your previous posts), but is naive in that people will not consistently format their posts in the way you have prescribed (requesting specific feedback, linking to previous quality no "bullshit" feedback). Deleting posts or excluding members for not following your rubric is juvenile.

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

You speak of discussion, but you have repeatedly dismissed EVERY other suggestion than your own... with fallacious logic and spite. Every other suggestion (except yours) can be abused, right? Your solution is simple and elegant and complete, right? Why even post?

Honestly I don't know why something like this has been taking so long to implement, or why everyone's treating it as something that has no solution. If we're a community we work together to help each other and uphold whatever standards and rules we set up. Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.

Rereading this topic, I don't know why I expected you to be receptive to any replies that didn't fully agree and reiterate your original post. Why did you create this topic if you'd already PMd an Admin? What did they say? I feel like you're trying to get the community to uphold whatever rules you set up. If nothing needs to be changed other than the sticky, how's that going? What actual progress has been made with this topic? If you want this to be just like reddit, why did you create an account at TPF? You seem to be keen on calling people out, why not post your harangue there... on the spammy posts of the whores you mentioned?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 09:29:08 am by Dichotomy »

sleepy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2016, 10:21:41 am »
You're awfully wordy...
... it is much easier to contrive a "crappy" review than to fill out well constructed polls. You haven't seen single word feedback? or even single smilies as feedback?

No, it isn't. And no, I haven't. You're exaggerating.

Speaking for myself, I don't restrict my life to doing only what's needed. I find an ideal, and strive for it.

I don't care, and that's irrelevant.

Your suggestion already exists... but is naive in that people will not consistently format their posts in the way you have prescribed... Deleting posts or excluding members for not following your rubric is juvenile.

It's juvenile to want to set up rules and then penalize people for not following those rules?
There have been threads like this one, but no one's suggested doing exactly as I have. I tried to solve any issues I found in those with my own suggestion.

I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

You speak of discussion, but you have repeatedly dismissed EVERY other suggestion than your own... with fallacious logic and spite. Every other suggestion (except yours) can be abused, right? Your solution is simple and elegant and complete, right? Why even post?

In case there are more people who agree with me. The more people behind a suggestion, the more influence it has.
I do think that my suggestion has been the least prone to abuse so far, and any suggestion I haven't agreed with I've tried my best to explain why. I think there's more spite in your post than in any post I've made so far.

I've acknowledged that my solution isn't perfect twice, and you've quoted both those times:

I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

and

... Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.

Why did you create this topic if you'd already PMd an Admin?

Because they said it was a good idea and, like I've already said, if I got people to agree with me then maybe the change would implemented sooner.

[/b] I feel like you're trying to get the community to uphold whatever rules you set up. If nothing needs to be changed other than the sticky, how's that going? What actual progress has been made with this topic? If you want this to be just like reddit, why did you create an account at TPF?

Well, it's clearly not going, and that's why I'm still replying to this post. Progress is that this is the most viewed suggestion on this board, and hopefully and administrator will say something about it soon. I never said I wanted TPF to be like Reddit, I just think a system that works over there could be very beneficial here. You said you strive for your ideals, didn't you? That's exactly what I'm doing.

You know, for some who calls out others for using "fallacious logic and spite" you use an AWFUL lot of it.

Hopefully I helped with some of your misunderstanding. Sorry I left out some jargon, I didn't find it all that relevant.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 10:23:50 am by sleepy »

Dichotomy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2016, 10:34:40 am »
Name Calling? Ok, you win. Bye bye. Good luck in life.

manducator

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2016, 10:51:55 am »
Name Calling?

Can you quote the name calling? I can't find it.

sleepy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2016, 09:14:22 pm »
Name Calling?

Can you quote the name calling? I can't find it.

I can't either. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Didn't you say you strive for your ideals? If you're unable to respond just say so, don't cop out by saying i called you "names" when i didn't.

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2016, 10:20:20 pm »
Got a little off topic I see. :)

Babasmas

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2016, 10:22:35 pm »
I have a variation of what i've suggest. Which is this thing :
The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?

Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track. The comment  will actually be usefull and will at least fill one of 2 criteria :
1. What did you feel about this track. Did this track made you travel, dream, etc... (Commenting "I like it" won't work and will make you lose your point.)
2. What did you think about the structure, the mix and the sounds in general ? (There's always something to sa)

So basically, if you're more into technical stuff, comment about everything you notice about the mix, mastering, effects use, sound design, etc...
BUT if you're more into creativity, then comment about the feelings of the song, the atmosphere, the ambiance, etc...

How will this work ? The point is automatically added after you post a comment. If the comment isn't at least 3 sentences and doesn't match the 2 criteria, then the moderator will remove it, or the actual OP of the thread will report it and a moderator will remove it. Once it has been remove, you lost your point.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.

sleepy

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2016, 12:26:21 am »
Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track.

Do you mean we'd have to review 15 tracks before posting our own? If each comment = 1 point, and you leave 1 comment per track, that'd be 15 tracks. I think that's too many...

The comment  will actually be usefull and will at least fill one of 2 criteria :
1. What did you feel about this track. Did this track made you travel, dream, etc... (Commenting "I like it" won't work and will make you lose your point.)
2. What did you think about the structure, the mix and the sounds in general ? (There's always something to sa)

So basically, if you're more into technical stuff, comment about everything you notice about the mix, mastering, effects use, sound design, etc...
BUT if you're more into creativity, then comment about the feelings of the song, the atmosphere, the ambiance, etc...

I'm suggesting something similar. I think my criteria could be more efficient because it's defined by the person posting the track for review. It doesn't help too much if someone is looking for feedback on their sound design and someone comments on their mixing or arrangement. Different producers hold different values, and what's important to one doesn't necessarily have to matter to the other.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.

Can you link to that forum?

Babasmas

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2016, 12:44:09 am »
Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track.

Do you mean we'd have to review 15 tracks before posting our own? If each comment = 1 point, and you leave 1 comment per track, that'd be 15 tracks. I think that's too many...
I will prevent spam heavily tho.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.

Can you link to that forum?
Here. http://www.fruityclub.net/forum/

You'll need to click there to see the actual "Sharing track" part.


You'll be able to notice that the comment are actually mostly longer. Although, It's hard to moderate but most of the time. The users warned the person and then the staff come pay a visit where the comments aren't good enough.


Gabe D

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Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2016, 12:54:21 am »
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.
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