The trouble with that kind of system is that people will just quickly post a couple of "COOL TRACK LOVE IT" messages and then post their own.

I think as the forum gets bigger the real problems with that forum will be (1) people who come in just to promote something, and (2) the sheer volume of posts. I think having a strict limit on posting there would be more useful than a feedback-for-feedback arrangement. For example, you have to have 50 posts on the forum before you can post there, and each user is limited to one post there per week.

Or maybe you could spend some (5?) of your "Honor" points to make a post there.

If someone's a valuable and helpful member of the community I think they deserve to show off a track every now and then, even if their helpful posts haven't been in the feedback forum.

I'm going to break down what's wrong with the section, what I'm suggesting, why what I'm suggesting could be beneficial, and then maybe why other things that have been suggested aren't a better alternative, then I'm editing back into my original post.

Things wrong with the "Finished Tracks" and "WIPs" sections:

• More people posting tracks for feedback than people posting feedback
• Therefore, many posts with very little if any responses
• People posting tracks for review without contributing anywhere else in the forum (post count <10)
• Some feedback that people leave isn't exactly relevant to the needs of the person posting (e.g. getting feedback for mixing when you're really looking for advice on your sound design or composition)
  
• Some feedback isn't of very good quality (e.g. "sick track! I love that snare at 0:30!"), often because other people don't know exactly what to listen for or what to leave feedback on

What I'm suggesting

• People post feedback to at least 2 tracks before posting their own
• People link to said feedback on their own tracks
• On their post, people specify what they would like to receive feedback on
• The stickies on the "Finished Tracks" and "WIPs" sections be updated with these rules.
• No one leave feedback to those who don't follow the rules, and maybe report them to the mods so their posts get deleted

Why this could work:

• Would greatly reduce spam
• Would increase amount of feedback
• Could potentially increase quality of feedback

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback. We've also established that some people leave crappy feedback. If there are two feedback posts for every song post, then we'd have double the amount feedback than tracks in the section. That's a good thing.

Also, if people are required to leave feedback before asking for feedback, then we'd get way less one-timers who come to the forum to post their track and then leave. They don't contribute anything, and I think it's fair they don't receive feedback.

Now, a person posting a track could just leave shitty feedback on two tracks or not all and just claim they did, but the fact that they're required to link back to this feedback in a way prevents this. I think it makes sense to think that if you're going to ask for reviews and show the reviews you've left, you'd want to be linking to the kind of reviews you'd want to be getting. Kinda like how presenting your resume for getting a good job doesn't require you showing just that you have done something, but that you did that something and you did it well. It's not something I can say for certain, but I think it's a fair assumption.

Another issue is not knowing what to leave feedback on. There are so many qualities of a track to comment on, leaving feedback might be discouraging because of this. Having the person posting a track specify what they want to receive feedback on makes it a lot easier to leave good feedback. If a person wants feedback on their sound design and says so, then you know what to look out for. This doesn't necessarily mean that you could only leave feedback on their sound design, any feedback helps. It's just a whole lot easier to leave good feedback when you know what to look for.

Some other things that have come up:

Point Systems
I maintain that point systems are a bad idea. If something is automated it can be easily abused. For example, if we need 3 points to post a track of our own and get a point for every feedback post we make on that section, then we could easily rack up as many points as we want by leaving a bunch of "sick drop bro" types of feedback, that don't really contribute anything. Like I said before, having to link back to the feedback you left may encourage better feedback.

Also, I think that if we want to encourage the idea of community and mutual helpfulness that this forum was based on, then we should rely more on the community to uphold its values rather some fancy coding, no? That's why I'm trying my best to base to this suggestion around everyone helping each other and not a cold, automated system that can be easily abused.

But I don't know a whole lot about music or its technicalities, how can I leave good feedback?
I mentioned before that you don't have to stick to what the person is asking for when leaving feedback (though it helps). I've also said that:

In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.

Hopefully I've explained myself thoroughly enough. I acknowledge that this system isn't perfect, but so far it's the best I've seen. I encourage criticism, but if you're going to say that something's bad, don't just leave it at that. Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.

Here's an example of what an ideal post would look like.

Thanks

Quote from: sleepy on January 18, 2016, 05:59:04 am

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback.

Have we, though? You've said it, but that's not the same thing.

It's not really an opinion. There's definitely more people leaving tracks than there are people contributing feedback. You're just picking at my words for the sake of it.

- Is it really a problem if tracks have just one or two people's feedback? Why?

I guess not, but the more opinions you get on a track the more viewpoints you get on it, and what one person hears another person might not. Not everyone has the same setup, and it's nice to have a variety of opinions on a track. I guess that's not a universal truth, but I'm guessing others would probably feel the same.

- Is it really a problem if someone with a low post count receives feedback on a track? Why? Why do you consider some people's tracks "spam"? What do you think they want out of the experience? Is it any different from what someone with a three-digit post count wants? Why do you think it's unfair that they receive feedback? Feedback is something for the person who leaves it to give, not something to which you're entitled (or not entitled!)

I do think it's a problem, especially when the post is one of the only two posts that person has made (which I've seen frequently). I think it's reasonable to say that a person who regularly contributes to the forum is more deserving of feedback than someone who doesn't contribute and just wants a few more followers or plays on his music. Once again, this is an opinion, but I think it's a reasonable opinion.

- If you enforce an amount of feedback given, you encourage the sort of useless alibi feedback posts you ostensibly decry (and you will discourage people from giving any feedback at all if you try to enforce quality standards for it, yes, even those whose feedback would meet them.) I believe your scheme would overall decrease the amount and quality of feedback given, except maybe from a handful of people—and by your rules only they would be allowed to ask for more feedback, so you'd be effectively closing off the section for most everyone else.

Is that how you go about making your music? Without any quality standards? How would enforcing quality standards lower the quality of the feedback? You're basically saying "We shouldn't enforce quality standards because if we did, people would leave lower quality feedback," except with more words. It doesn't exactly follow.

- The people who struggle to give meaningful feedback are the ones who need good feedback the most.

Because you say so? Didn't you just say that no one's entitled to feedback anymore than anyone else?

You say that emotional feedback is "probably just as important as any technical feedback", well there you went and made your own feedback quality rules redundant, because "sick drop bro" is some valid-ass emotional feedback, even if you may prefer it in more flowery language. Also love the threatening note on which you end the quote: "As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem." What happens if there is a problem? Who determines that? You sure left the door open to make it a problem if you wanted to!

It didn't really seem threatening when I wrote it, it wasn't meant to be threatening, and I don't think it was interpreted that way by the person it was meant for either.

Also, what feedback quality rules are you talking about? Not entirely sure "redundant" is the word you're going for either. Probably the only "feedback quality rule" I've implied is to leave good feedback lol. Do I really have to specify what good feedback is?  I'd have to disagree that "sick drop bro" is "some valid-ass emotional feedback." Yes, it is emotional feedback, but it's not really helping the person who requested feedback. THAT'S what makes feedback good, helping the person who posted make decisions on future projects. Feedback that just says something is good might serve as a quick self-esteem boost, but is practically useless. Elaborating on why you liked certain parts and why you didn't like other parts is way more helpful.

- That stasi shit about reporting people for infractions is hella creepy. What is this, some kind of police state? Relax! Maybe if a track didn't get a lot of feedback, that's feedback in itself.

You're saying we shouldn't help enforce the rules we set up? How is this is even an argument?

Final note:

Quote from: sleepy on January 18, 2016, 05:59:04 am

Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.

That is a) wrong, b) an unreasonable demand to make, and c) certainly not yours to demand in the first place. People do contribute by pointing out faulty reasoning, even when they don't come up with a complete alternative plan. You're not the King of Posting Who Makes the Rules Around Here, and nobody is under compulsion to jump through the hoops you hold up.

There have been a couple of people who say I'm wrong and leave it at that without explaining why or even pointing out my reasoning. You've tried your best but there's still tons of holes in your own explanations. I don't claim to be better than anyone else, I just don't think people who say I'm wrong and then leave are really contributing to the discussion, which is what forums are for, right?

I personally feel that the current feedback system isn't very good, and that people have no real incentive to leave helpful feedback, and I've given a suggestion to improve that section. That's all this is.

i like this, i think the feeback section is important and we're missing the one thing we need for it to be great... the FEEDBACK!   

i like the idea about having to listen and give feedback to about 2-3 others when posting a track

I'm actually pretty happy with the feedback forum as it is. Most tracks get a comment or two. That's not terrible.

Personally I actually like giving feedback, so I've done so where I can. I don't give feedback on genres I don't really listen to or on remixes (because often I haven't heard the original track). I also try to find tracks by anyone who has left me feedback and reciprocate.

I think the only change it needs is "must have x posts before posting a track". I'd put x at somewhere between 20 and 50, and I realize this would mean I can't post tracks for a while. Maybe there should be a "must be a member for x weeks before posting tracks" rule too. Both of those are reasonable and easy to implement.

If members of the community (rather than drive-by promoters or spammers) are the main people posting tracks, I think the community will make it work. If we see someone being spammy or trying to game the system, we don't give them good feedback.

Why not limit it to one new topic, per member, per week?