The Producer's Forum

The Graveyard => R&A Graveyard => Topic started by: sleepy on January 09, 2016, 08:29:00 am

Title: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 09, 2016, 08:29:00 am
I already PM'd ninth parallel about this, but I wanna know what you guys think.

Right now the Finished Tracks and WIP sections have the most posts, but least amount of replies. It's pretty much just a bunch of people posting their tracks and waiting for replies. Not super conducive to discussion. Why don't we update the description here (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=67.0) to make it so that every person who posts a track has to leave feedback for 2 or 3 others? That way the board doesn't get all saturated with dead posts, and people have an incentive to leave feedback. The person posting the track would link to their feedback as proof on their own post. Posts that don't get deleted. The r/edmproduction feedback threads on Reddit kinda work this way and the outcome is mostly positive.

I think it's a simple fix, as the forum layout stays the same. All that changes is the description on the introduction to that board.
I've seen the same things popping up frequently, so I've decided to update this post to provide a more thorough outline of what I'm suggesting:

Things wrong with the "Finished Tracks" and "WIPs" sections:


What I'm suggesting

Why this could work:

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback. We've also established that some people leave crappy feedback. If there are two feedback posts for every song post, then we'd have double the amount feedback than tracks in the section. That's a good thing.

Also, if people are required to leave feedback before asking for feedback, then we'd get way less one-timers who come to the forum to post their track and then leave. They don't contribute anything, and I think it's fair they don't receive feedback.

Now, a person posting a track could just leave shitty feedback on two tracks or not all and just claim they did, but the fact that they're required to link back to this feedback in a way prevents this. I think it makes sense to think that if you're going to ask for reviews and show the reviews you've left, you'd want to be linking to the kind of reviews you'd want to be getting. Kinda like how presenting your resume for getting a good job doesn't require you showing just that you have done something, but that you did that something and you did it well. It's not something I can say for certain, but I think it's a fair assumption.

Another issue is not knowing what to leave feedback on. There are so many qualities of a track to comment on, leaving feedback might be discouraging because of this. Having the person posting a track specify what they want to receive feedback on makes it a lot easier to leave good feedback. If a person wants feedback on their sound design and says so, then you know what to look out for. This doesn't necessarily mean that you could only leave feedback on their sound design, any feedback helps. It's just a whole lot easier to leave good feedback when you know what to look for.

Some other things that have come up:

Point Systems
I maintain that point systems are a bad idea. If something is automated it can be easily abused. For example, if we need 3 points to post a track of our own and get a point for every feedback post we make on that section, then we could easily rack up as many points as we want by leaving a bunch of "sick drop bro" types of feedback, that don't really contribute anything. Like I said before, having to link back to the feedback you left may encourage better feedback.

Also, I think that if we want to encourage the idea of community and mutual helpfulness that this forum was based on, then we should rely more on the community to uphold its values rather some fancy coding, no? That's why I'm trying my best to base to this suggestion around everyone helping each other and not a cold, automated system that can be easily abused.

But I don't know a whole lot about music or its technicalities, how can I leave good feedback?
I mentioned before that you don't have to stick to what the person is asking for when leaving feedback (though it helps). I've also said that:

In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.

Hopefully I've explained myself thoroughly enough. I acknowledge that this system isn't perfect, but so far it's the best I've seen. (https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/comments/41hfbm/feedback_thread_january_18/) I encourage criticism, but if you're going to say that something's bad, don't just leave it at that. Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.

Here's an example of what an ideal post would look like. (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=1222.0)

Thanks :P
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Dan Samurai on January 09, 2016, 08:34:39 am
Yeah I agree, it does suck at this moment. There has to be a way to enforce the feedback for feedback deal. To be able to post one feedback post, it should require you to leave feedback on at least 3 others somehow.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 09, 2016, 08:41:31 am
That's why you'd have to link to the feedback you've left on others' songs  :D. People who don't just wouldn't get anyone leaving them any feedback, and eventually get deleted. I think that's fair right?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Joseph on January 09, 2016, 08:42:05 am
Maybe we could have something like
"Feedback Given: #" under Honors
It would give people another reason to give constructive criticism
If you really want to get serious about it, there could be mods just for that section who give out the points so people can't just write one word and get a point 
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Szub! on January 09, 2016, 02:46:37 pm
i agree with you guys, it's becoming a bit one-sided.

i think it would be great if they could do some kind of pop-up window with 2-3 tracks which got few replys/views. and it would olny dissappear if you leave a comment on it or something like that. so in that case you would be "forced" to give feedback to be able to get one. :)
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: JamesSweeneyy on January 09, 2016, 02:58:54 pm
i agree with you guys, it's becoming a bit one-sided.

i think it would be great if they could do some kind of pop-up window with 2-3 tracks which got few replys/views. and it would olny dissappear if you leave a comment on it or something like that. so in that case you would be "forced" to give feedback to be able to get one. :)

nothing stops half arsed feedback though... 'yeah, i like 0:30, really cool track man!'
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 09, 2016, 03:05:05 pm
i agree with you guys, it's becoming a bit one-sided.

i think it would be great if they could do some kind of pop-up window with 2-3 tracks which got few replys/views. and it would olny dissappear if you leave a comment on it or something like that. so in that case you would be "forced" to give feedback to be able to get one. :)

nothing stops half arsed feedback though... 'yeah, i like 0:30, really cool track man!'
yeah, true. It is really hard to leave feedback. But need to try your best. Everything you notice, that bothers you tell it. Even the dude doesn't like you comment. Honest answer are the best. Be an ass, some people need it to move on.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Szub! on January 09, 2016, 03:14:11 pm
i agree with you guys, it's becoming a bit one-sided.

i think it would be great if they could do some kind of pop-up window with 2-3 tracks which got few replys/views. and it would olny dissappear if you leave a comment on it or something like that. so in that case you would be "forced" to give feedback to be able to get one. :)

nothing stops half arsed feedback though... 'yeah, i like 0:30, really cool track man!'
yeah, true. It is really hard to leave feedback. But need to try your best. Everything you notice, that bothers you tell it. Even the dude doesn't like you comment. Honest answer are the best. Be an ass, some people need it to move on.

yeah i know it's hard, i'm not a good producer therefore i can't really give a decent feedback. i always try to write something even it's just a 'nice track' but that shows that i took my time to take a listen. sometimes a few good words could mean a lot..   ;) :D
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: BorderCity on January 09, 2016, 03:31:32 pm
Well said if you want feedback you should give feedback.

Perhaps like a points system, where you give feedback and get points, and then to receive feedback you "spend" those points? Something along those lines :)
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: MEDMAN on January 09, 2016, 05:15:10 pm
Yeah makes sense, all forums that I've participated in my 7 years of producing, the session of feedback in track is the same, no one gives feedback, constructive critics, but wants that everybody pays attention to your tracks, this system that the lazy users do that kills the foruns always  :-\
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: 404indirect on January 09, 2016, 05:28:24 pm

nothing stops half arsed feedback though... 'yeah, i like 0:30, really cool track man!'

Its all half arsed feedback (and it will continue to be so) because most of the people do not know what they are supposed to be listening for. Most people here have consumer taste in music and no deep understanding of music production and only make music hoping to be the next Tiesto.
Jus' Sayin'  :-\
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: iamimago on January 09, 2016, 05:39:07 pm
The difference with this site and many others is how easy it is to view a persons posts.

So, IMO, there should be a rule in the sticky which states what OP said (that one has to post feedback at least 3 times) in order to post a track themselves and if it's not followed the person gets timed out and or gets restricted access to creating threads.

And to ease the burden on the mods a simple "report user: not giving feedback" thing could be implemented.

This solution requires like... 2 sentences in the sticky and minimum amount of work from the users and mods, but will yield good results
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety on January 09, 2016, 05:43:35 pm

nothing stops half arsed feedback though... 'yeah, i like 0:30, really cool track man!'

Its all half arsed feedback (and it will continue to be so) because most of the people do not know what they are supposed to be listening for. Most people here have consumer taste in music and no deep understanding of music production and only make music hoping to be the next Tiesto.
Jus' Sayin'  :-\

Thats a little harsh but probably true.

I definitely think the current system is flawed. For people who are really new at producing, I feel like I can't really give helpful feedback. The thing that you learn the most from at that stage is just making another track.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: cat on January 09, 2016, 05:44:35 pm
i think there should be some requirements and conditions you need to meet before you are able to submit your own music, such as a minimum post count
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 09, 2016, 06:08:54 pm
I definitely think the current system is flawed. For people who are really new at producing, I feel like I can't really give helpful feedback. The thing that you learn the most from at that stage is just making another track.

That's something that you can tell them! :) They may not know.

(also, your user name is overlapping the posts, so meta)
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety on January 09, 2016, 06:12:27 pm
I definitely think the current system is flawed. For people who are really new at producing, I feel like I can't really give helpful feedback. The thing that you learn the most from at that stage is just making another track.

That's something that you can tell them! :) They may not know.

(also, your user name is overlapping the posts, so meta)

Good point!
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 10, 2016, 05:44:54 am
I honestly don't think we need to make it so complicated. I made a post using the format I think we should use. Here it is. (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=1222.0)

Basically we link to the feedback we've left, users can see the quality of the feedback we've left for themselves, and based on that decide whether or not to leave their own feedback. We'd link to our tracks and then briefly describe what we're interested in getting feedback on. Naturally we'd want to leave feedback for the people leaving quality feedback, and no feedback for the people leaving bad or no feedback.

Simple fix, without the need for points or implementing any more coding for the forum. All we'd need is to edit the stickies :)
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Mussar on January 10, 2016, 05:54:06 am
To be honest I thought you already had to comment on two other people's posts with critiques before being able to post any of your work. I'd definitely second the idea of setting a post limit (maybe Subsonics can't post new songs? Maybe even Sub Basses?), and some sort of ranking system so people can be aware of what the producer's skill level and how they should approach their feedback. It's a little frustrating to look for feedback and get "oh wow this sounds amazing great job!!!!!!" as a response, so helping people find peer groups, mentors, and pupils might be beneficial.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: DANZ on January 10, 2016, 07:02:46 am
I totally agree man! I am really needing some feedback on my track, and I have left feedback for a bunch of other people! Oh well, I hope it does become real!
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 10, 2016, 02:33:18 pm
To be honest I thought you already had to comment on two other people's posts with critiques before being able to post any of your work. I'd definitely second the idea of setting a post limit (maybe Subsonics can't post new songs? Maybe even Sub Basses?), and some sort of ranking system so people can be aware of what the producer's skill level and how they should approach their feedback. It's a little frustrating to look for feedback and get "oh wow this sounds amazing great job!!!!!!" as a response, so helping people find peer groups, mentors, and pupils might be beneficial.
If the number of posts is to give people privileges, it will only amount to post whoring.  People leaving short non sense feedback.  There are already some who feel they have to comment on everything, even if they have no value in what they write.
I can only speak for myself, but I feel it´s really horrible to criticize finished work.  I mean, this is something that the creators say that they are happy with. Done. That makes it hard to say that " you should do this, and this...".
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: DANZ on January 10, 2016, 05:04:03 pm
To be honest I thought you already had to comment on two other people's posts with critiques before being able to post any of your work. I'd definitely second the idea of setting a post limit (maybe Subsonics can't post new songs? Maybe even Sub Basses?), and some sort of ranking system so people can be aware of what the producer's skill level and how they should approach their feedback. It's a little frustrating to look for feedback and get "oh wow this sounds amazing great job!!!!!!" as a response, so helping people find peer groups, mentors, and pupils might be beneficial.
If the number of posts is to give people privileges, it will only amount to post whoring.  People leaving short non sense feedback.  There are already some who feel they have to comment on everything, even if they have no value in what they write.
I can only speak for myself, but I feel it´s really horrible to criticize finished work.  I mean, this is something that the creators say that they are happy with. Done. That makes it hard to say that " you should do this, and this...".


It shouldn't be criticized if they dont ask for it, but I totally get where your'e coming from.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Mussar on January 10, 2016, 05:56:41 pm
If the number of posts is to give people privileges, it will only amount to post whoring.  People leaving short non sense feedback.  There are already some who feel they have to comment on everything, even if they have no value in what they write.
I can only speak for myself, but I feel it´s really horrible to criticize finished work.  I mean, this is something that the creators say that they are happy with. Done. That makes it hard to say that " you should do this, and this...".

I think that's a good point; we should try to find a way to keep people from making accounts JUST to post their tracks and not contribute, while preventing people from just spamming comments on things without genuine feedback.

And you might think it's bad to criticized finished work, but at the same time how do people grow if all someone's gonna say is "Wow, what a good song!"

I would much rather be told "Your drums are rocking, the chords could do with some work, and you could probably have spent some more time on your lead sound to get it to gel with the rest of your mix. Keep going!"

It shouldn't be criticized if they dont ask for it, but I totally get where your'e coming from.

I suppose I'm just of the opinion that posting your songs for compliments and only compliments is not a way to develop and grow as an artist. If someone says "I don't want any critiques of my work" I'm not gonna just throw shade obviously, but if you go into both the WIPs and Finished Tracks subforums almost every thread has someone asking for opinions or feedback. This is a place for people to learn from each other, and you can't learn from someone who tells you that you're doing everything correctly - otherwise there'd be no reason for you to learn in the first place!
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 10, 2016, 06:38:26 pm


I think that's a good point; we should try to find a way to keep people from making accounts JUST to post their tracks and not contribute, while preventing people from just spamming comments on things without genuine feedback.

And you might think it's bad to criticized finished work, but at the same time how do people grow if all someone's gonna say is "Wow, what a good song!"

I would much rather be told "Your drums are rocking, the chords could do with some work, and you could probably have spent some more time on your lead sound to get it to gel with the rest of your mix. Keep going!"


I suppose I'm just of the opinion that posting your songs for compliments and only compliments is not a way to develop and grow as an artist. If someone says "I don't want any critiques of my work" I'm not gonna just throw shade obviously, but if you go into both the WIPs and Finished Tracks subforums almost every thread has someone asking for opinions or feedback. This is a place for people to learn from each other, and you can't learn from someone who tells you that you're doing everything correctly - otherwise there'd be no reason for you to learn in the first place!

I agree and disagree with you here, as I feel that it is easier to give out an opinion on WIPs.  I have tracks that my label has accepted the masters on, and when I get feedback saying to fix this and that... It´s just not constructive IMO.  Makes me doubt what I am capable of, as well as making me distrust the critic.  The finished section should be more of "what should I do before sending it out"-section, unless people start asking for real opinions themselves.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Mussar on January 10, 2016, 06:52:34 pm
The finished section should be more of "what should I do before sending it out"-section, unless people start asking for real opinions themselves.

... What's the difference?  ???
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 10, 2016, 07:35:08 pm
I wonder if it would work to get rid of Finished Tracks/WIP and instead make a Showcase section that has comments turned off (so it would be +1 votes only), and a Feedback section that has comments open, with the explicit disclaimer that you'll have to expect comments there, whether you ask for them or not :)

May be too radical, but who knows?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 10, 2016, 08:19:11 pm
The finished section should be more of "what should I do before sending it out"-section, unless people start asking for real opinions themselves.

... What's the difference?  ???
The degree of completion.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Technicolor Type on January 10, 2016, 08:30:33 pm
A thing another website I like to frequent does is C4C, which means comment for comment. That means if you tag your threads title with C4C, someone will give you feedback and put the link of their song's thread, then you are obligated to go to their thread and give them a comment. This works extremely well and has been in place for like 8 years on the other website I go on. They also have a strict rule against bumping which means the only way to keep your thread seen is to constantly be giving feedback to other people's music.

for example my title would be this
Technicolor Type - meme (psy-jazz blowjob fusion trap) [C4C]
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 10, 2016, 10:34:58 pm
I can only speak for myself, but I feel it´s really horrible to criticize finished work.  I mean, this is something that the creators say that they are happy with. Done. That makes it hard to say that " you should do this, and this...".

It's also something that the creators are asking for feedback on. Why is this even being discussed? Feedback has always been a big part of any discussion forum; the board is called "Sharing and Feedback." Personally, I feel better receiving feedback after I've finished a piece, as whenever I've received feedback on a WIP I've been sort of biased when I'd continue work on it, but I guess that's irrelevant. Feedback is a part of the forum, we should be deciding on how to make it more efficient.

I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than specifying what you'd like to get feedback on in your post. "Here's my track, I'd like to know what you guys think of x, y, and z." Simple, efficient, what else is there to say?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 10, 2016, 11:00:20 pm
I can only speak for myself, but I feel it´s really horrible to criticize finished work.  I mean, this is something that the creators say that they are happy with. Done. That makes it hard to say that " you should do this, and this...".

It's also something that the creators are asking for feedback on. Why is this even being discussed? Feedback has always been a big part of any discussion forum; the board is called "Sharing and Feedback." Personally, I feel better receiving feedback after I've finished a piece, as whenever I've received feedback on a WIP I've been sort of biased when I'd continue work on it, but I guess that's irrelevant. Feedback is a part of the forum, we should be deciding on how to make it more efficient.

I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than specifying what you'd like to get feedback on in your post. "Here's my track, I'd like to know what you guys think of x, y, and z." Simple, efficient, what else is there to say?

Give the man a cookie and he will eat it. Give the producer a section where they can post their music, they'll spam it.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 11, 2016, 04:30:39 am
Spam would go down drastically if we set up rules and everyone helped enforce them. You don't leave feedback? You don't get feedback, and your post gets deleted. Want good feedback? Leave good feedback and specify what qualities of your song you want to have evaluated. Simple stuff here.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Revere on January 11, 2016, 04:34:17 am
I agree, that's a great idea!
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Erik_S on January 11, 2016, 04:44:01 am
Maybe part of the solution is to put a reminder disclaimer that this forum is for us to work on the craft and learn from each other. This is probably not the place for anyone to get "discovered". You wanna get discovered? Use the rest of the forum, learn, make music and start getting your following at home. You don't really wanna come into the scene like Justin Bieber do you? Do you?!?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 11, 2016, 06:49:42 am

It's also something that the creators are asking for feedback on. Why is this even being discussed?
I was not looking to discuss this actually.  Just trying to explain why it may be hard for people to give feedback.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 11, 2016, 08:22:24 am
Spam would go down drastically if we set up rules and everyone helped enforce them. You don't leave feedback? You don't get feedback, and your post gets deleted. Want good feedback? Leave good feedback and specify what qualities of your song you want to have evaluated. Simple stuff here.
I agree with that but the thing is, we would need the moderator to be there every hour... and they'll need to check, if he left feedback, if he follow the rule. (Means, we will need moderator that are there only for this section) Which is hard, because who actually want to do that, except few people ?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Uppertone on January 11, 2016, 03:40:44 pm
It's hard to tell who gives the RIGHT advice.

If a newbie takes the wrong advice well, his music is still going to sound like shit.

Most people just spam their tracks there for views and don't really care what other people think.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety on January 11, 2016, 09:44:32 pm
Maybe part of the solution is to put a reminder disclaimer that this forum is for us to work on the craft and learn from each other. This is probably not the place for anyone to get "discovered". You wanna get discovered? Use the rest of the forum, learn, make music and start getting your following at home. You don't really wanna come into the scene like Justin Bieber do you? Do you?!?

I love this and totally agree.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 12, 2016, 05:53:42 pm
Maybe part of the solution is to put a reminder disclaimer that this forum is for us to work on the craft and learn from each other. This is probably not the place for anyone to get "discovered".

Saying that this isn't the place to be discovered wouldn't stop people from spamming their track anyway to get a couple more followers. We wouldn't need a disclaimer if people would be forced to leave quality feedback (aka addressing what the person posting the track specified in their post), or not get any feedback themselves. THAT would prevent spamming.

It's hard to tell who gives the RIGHT advice.

If a newbie takes the wrong advice well, his music is still going to sound like shit.

Most people just spam their tracks there for views and don't really care what other people think.

We could have a disclaimer that says to take everything with a grain a salt, as not everyone here is a professional, and that your creative decisions ultimately depend on you and whatever artistic aspirations you may have. But that still wouldn't help much against spam.
Spam would go down drastically if we set up rules and everyone helped enforce them. You don't leave feedback? You don't get feedback, and your post gets deleted. Want good feedback? Leave good feedback and specify what qualities of your song you want to have evaluated. Simple stuff here.
I agree with that but the thing is, we would need the moderator to be there every hour... and they'll need to check, if he left feedback, if he follow the rule. (Means, we will need moderator that are there only for this section) Which is hard, because who actually want to do that, except few people ?

"Spam would go down drastically if we set up rules and everyone helped enforce them." We don't need any specific individual checking constantly for posts that haven't left feedback. If we did our part and reported anyone breaking the rules, and didn't leave feedback for those individuals, the mod's responsibilities would go down drastically.

Honestly I don't know why something like this has been taking so long to implement, or why everyone's treating it as something that has no solution. If we're a community we work together to help each other and uphold whatever standards and rules we set up. Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Final Kindgom on January 13, 2016, 01:06:35 am
Its all half arsed feedback (and it will continue to be so) because most of the people do not know what they are supposed to be listening for. Most people here have consumer taste in music and no deep understanding of music production...

I haven't given feedback/shared my music on this forum yet, but when I did so on Reddit, I found it hard to give good con crit. That wasn't because I was trying to half ass it so that more people would look at my stuff in return; it was genuinely because I didn't know what I should have been looking for. I can critique vocals and chord voicings, but I've only been at this for the past 7 months. I've improved a bit since I started but there are still things that I can't hear. I'm sure there are tons of people here that are in the same boat as me.

So now I ask this: How should we go about critiquing other people's work while we are inexperienced? I would love to give meaningful feedback to others. Obviously continuing to learn production will help, but what things do the experienced look out for that we need to know?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety on January 13, 2016, 01:38:32 am
Its all half arsed feedback (and it will continue to be so) because most of the people do not know what they are supposed to be listening for. Most people here have consumer taste in music and no deep understanding of music production...

I haven't given feedback/shared my music on this forum yet, but when I did so on Reddit, I found it hard to give good con crit. That wasn't because I was trying to half ass it so that more people would look at my stuff in return; it was genuinely because I didn't know what I should have been looking for. I can critique vocals and chord voicings, but I've only been at this for the past 7 months. I've improved a bit since I started but there are still things that I can't hear. I'm sure there are tons of people here that are in the same boat as me.

So now I ask this: How should we go about critiquing other people's work while we are inexperienced? I would love to give meaningful feedback to others. Obviously continuing to learn production will help, but what things do the experienced look out for that we need to know?

I don't answer this as an "expert", but when I post a track, the most helpful response is telling me how it made you feel. Did it get you pumped? Did it do nothing for you? Did you start thinking of your ex and a tear came to your eye? Did you suddenly want to get high? Did it make you want to punch your computer screen?

Imo, those kind of responses are more helpful than anything mix related. For me at least.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 13, 2016, 04:17:02 am
I don't answer this as an "expert", but when I post a track, the most helpful response is telling me how it made you feel. Did it get you pumped? Did it do nothing for you? Did you start thinking of your ex and a tear came to your eye? Did you suddenly want to get high? Did it make you want to punch your computer screen?

Imo, those kind of responses are more helpful than anything mix related. For me at least.

I agree 100%. In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 13, 2016, 07:04:41 am
quote from UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety

" I don't answer this as an "expert", but when I post a track, the most helpful response is telling me how it made you feel."

This is what can fix the "Finished tracks" section!  Then there´s no need to critique the production unless it´s asked for.
+1
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Dichotomy on January 13, 2016, 07:27:00 am
SMF (the forum web software) has mods for polls http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll) It might take a little bit of coding, but it seems feasible that polls could be programmatically tracked to preclude people from creating a new topic in a board without exceeding a threshold (set number of completed polls in the board).

Also, couldn't polls be auto-created to simplify feedback? Like 1 - 10 for different categories... (an off the cuff list)
Instrument Selection
Arrangement
Overall Impact
Overall Production Quality

Another thought - the poll would be mandatory (for the reason mentioned above), and a written comment section would be available for feedback outside the scope of the poll.

Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 13, 2016, 12:02:04 pm
I agree with that but the thing is, we would need the moderator to be there every hour... and they'll need to check, if he left feedback, if he follow the rule. (Means, we will need moderator that are there only for this section) Which is hard, because who actually want to do that, except few people ?

"Spam would go down drastically if we set up rules and everyone helped enforce them." We don't need any specific individual checking constantly for posts that haven't left feedback. If we did our part and reported anyone breaking the rules, and didn't leave feedback for those individuals, the mod's responsibilities would go down drastically.

Honestly I don't know why something like this has been taking so long to implement, or why everyone's treating it as something that has no solution. If we're a community we work together to help each other and uphold whatever standards and rules we set up. Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.
True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Final Kindgom on January 13, 2016, 06:02:00 pm
I don't answer this as an "expert", but when I post a track, the most helpful response is telling me how it made you feel. Did it get you pumped? Did it do nothing for you? Did you start thinking of your ex and a tear came to your eye? Did you suddenly want to get high? Did it make you want to punch your computer screen?

Imo, those kind of responses are more helpful than anything mix related. For me at least.

I'll definitely give this a shot. Thank you for the response!
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 13, 2016, 07:09:46 pm
SMF (the forum web software) has mods for polls http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll) It might take a little bit of coding, but it seems feasible that polls could be programmatically tracked to preclude people from creating a new topic in a board without exceeding a threshold (set number of completed polls in the board).

Also, couldn't polls be auto-created to simplify feedback? Like 1 - 10 for different categories... (an off the cuff list)
Instrument Selection
Arrangement
Overall Impact
Overall Production Quality

Another thought - the poll would be mandatory (for the reason mentioned above), and a written comment section would be available for feedback outside the scope of the poll.

Yeah, that could work, buy I just feel like keeping things simple is the way to go. The mods and admins or whatever are busy people and coding for a forum just takes too long. Especially if it hasn't been done already and you need to come up with a feature yourself. All we need is a simple edit to the sticky, maybe other stuff can be implemented later but I don't think there's a real need for it.

True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 13, 2016, 09:19:21 pm
True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.
Nope, there already was a thread talking about this. i'm going to quote myself. (Here (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=933.0))

The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Ozone on January 14, 2016, 05:41:55 am
maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 14, 2016, 05:49:52 am
True, but It didn't worked last time (edmDistrict) and it won't work this time...

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.
Nope, there already was a thread talking about this. i'm going to quote myself. (Here (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=933.0))

The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?

That's useful, but the post I quoted has nothing useful at all. If it were easy to implement a point system I'd be all for it, but a) it'd probably involve some kind of coding, which isn't super simple to implement b) it'd be really easy to abuse a point system, and c) if the person who posts the track for review is lazy and doesn't feel like giving someone points, even if the feedback was good, the person leaving the feedback would get no compensation.

And also, out of curiosity, what French producer's forum are you talking about?

maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that

That could be easily abused too. A person could just leave a ton of stupid comments like "cool track" or "how do I sound like skrillex" and easily become a low mid in no time.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Dichotomy on January 14, 2016, 06:11:14 am
SMF (the forum web software) has mods for polls http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll (http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?action=search;basic_search=poll) It might take a little bit of coding, but it seems feasible that polls could be programmatically tracked to preclude people from creating a new topic in a board without exceeding a threshold (set number of completed polls in the board).

Also, couldn't polls be auto-created to simplify feedback? Like 1 - 10 for different categories... (an off the cuff list)
Instrument Selection
Arrangement
Overall Impact
Overall Production Quality

Another thought - the poll would be mandatory (for the reason mentioned above), and a written comment section would be available for feedback outside the scope of the poll.

Yeah, that could work, buy I just feel like keeping things simple is the way to go. The mods and admins or whatever are busy people and coding for a forum just takes too long. Especially if it hasn't been done already and you need to come up with a feature yourself. All we need is a simple edit to the sticky, maybe other stuff can be implemented later but I don't think there's a real need for it.

I was under the impression that Mat Zo doesn't write PHP modules for SMF and moderate the board himself, but has placed capable, trusted people in a position to do this. Rather than speaking to the ineptitude you apparently perceive, I'll say that I think they could do it, no problem. Also, speaking as a web application developer of 15 years, I'm not just dreaming that suggestion up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow... or even in 2 weeks. I understand there's a "throwback" feel to this Forum, but I find it hard to believe they would insist the technology be identical (versus the camaraderie or community involvement) to some antiquated web forum user experience of years past. I'll stop before I volunteer my personal abilities... of course. I don't personally know Mr. Zohar or any of the Administrators or Moderators. A "lemmie fix your site for you" PM would be rude and presumptuous.

Yes, the stickies probably need to be edited... I've seen one moderator dismiss a request for genre tagging with the reasoning that people should use a subject format that's not recommended by the sticky (it's something similar, but neglects genre).

maybe not allowed to start threads in that section until they hit 100 posts? or maybe become a "low mid"? something like that

I've already seen a ton of vapid, conversational "posts" that belong in a chat room. I seriously don't mean to insult all of TPF... this is observable... not a terrible thing. I don't believe it makes sense to offer incentives or enhancements to frequent posters (other than the increased opportunity to receive "Honor").
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 14, 2016, 07:25:08 am
I was under the impression that Mat Zo doesn't write PHP modules for SMF and moderate the board himself, but has placed capable, trusted people in a position to do this. Rather than speaking to the ineptitude you apparently perceive, I'll say that I think they could do it, no problem. Also, speaking as a web application developer of 15 years, I'm not just dreaming that suggestion up. It doesn't have to be tomorrow... or even in 2 weeks. I understand there's a "throwback" feel to this Forum, but I find it hard to believe they would insist the technology be identical (versus the camaraderie or community involvement) to some antiquated web forum user experience of years past. I'll stop before I volunteer my personal abilities... of course. I don't personally know Mr. Zohar or any of the Administrators or Moderators. A "lemmie fix your site for you" PM would be rude and presumptuous.

Yes, the stickies probably need to be edited... I've seen one moderator dismiss a request for genre tagging with the reasoning that people should use a subject format that's not recommended by the sticky (it's something similar, but neglects genre).

Whether or not they can do it isn't the issue here. The point is that there doesn't need to be anything done beyond an edit to the sticky to have a more effective discussion in those sections. Keyword here is "discussion." If the emphasis is on "camaraderie or community involvement" and not technology, then it wouldn't make sense to develop more code-based, less personal way of reviewing music, especially not one that has such a huge potential for abuse.

Any system that's based on doing x amount of computer monitored tasks can be abuse easily. And having it be that way doesn't encourage better feedback either.

Having to write feedback and then link back to it when asking for feedback yourself puts you in a position where you're better off not writing bullshit. It's way harder to put together a crappy review of a song than it is to randomly fill out those polls you suggested. And when it's your own post that's on the line, you're more likely to leave better feedback.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Dichotomy on January 14, 2016, 08:27:03 am
Whether or not they can do it isn't the issue here. The point is that there doesn't need to be anything done beyond an edit to the sticky to have a more effective discussion in those sections. Keyword here is "discussion." If the emphasis is on "camaraderie or community involvement" and not technology, then it wouldn't make sense to develop more code-based, less personal way of reviewing music, especially not one that has such a huge potential for abuse.

Any system that's based on doing x amount of computer monitored tasks can be abuse easily. And having it be that way doesn't encourage better feedback either.

Having to write feedback and then link back to it when asking for feedback yourself puts you in a position where you're better off not writing bullshit. It's way harder to put together a crappy review of a song than it is to randomly fill out those polls you suggested. And when it's your own post that's on the line, you're more likely to leave better feedback.

It is clear you did not understand what I intended to communicate. I apologize for not being sufficiently articulate. No, it is much easier to contrive a "crappy" review than to fill out well constructed polls. You haven't seen single word feedback? or even single smilies as feedback? You've mentioned the ease of this while dismissing some other reply. Speaking for myself, I don't restrict my life to doing only what's needed. I find an ideal, and strive for it. I'd quote where you said my suggestion could work, but I know you remember. Your suggestion already exists (you can review the posts of others, as I have done with your previous posts), but is naive in that people will not consistently format their posts in the way you have prescribed (requesting specific feedback, linking to previous quality no "bullshit" feedback). Deleting posts or excluding members for not following your rubric is juvenile.

You're being negative for the sake of being negative. If you're only contribution after your point getting disproven is  essentially "it just won't work because I say so" then why even post? I don't know what happened to the edm district or whatever, but it works on Reddit and could definitely work here. I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

You speak of discussion, but you have repeatedly dismissed EVERY other suggestion than your own... with fallacious logic and spite. Every other suggestion (except yours) can be abused, right? Your solution is simple and elegant and complete, right? Why even post?

Honestly I don't know why something like this has been taking so long to implement, or why everyone's treating it as something that has no solution. If we're a community we work together to help each other and uphold whatever standards and rules we set up. Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.

Rereading this topic, I don't know why I expected you to be receptive to any replies that didn't fully agree and reiterate your original post. Why did you create this topic if you'd already PMd an Admin? What did they say? I feel like you're trying to get the community to uphold whatever rules you set up. If nothing needs to be changed other than the sticky, how's that going? What actual progress has been made with this topic? If you want this to be just like reddit, why did you create an account at TPF? You seem to be keen on calling people out, why not post your harangue there... on the spammy posts of the whores you mentioned?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 14, 2016, 10:21:41 am
You're awfully wordy...
... it is much easier to contrive a "crappy" review than to fill out well constructed polls. You haven't seen single word feedback? or even single smilies as feedback?

No, it isn't. And no, I haven't. You're exaggerating.

Speaking for myself, I don't restrict my life to doing only what's needed. I find an ideal, and strive for it.

I don't care, and that's irrelevant.

Your suggestion already exists... but is naive in that people will not consistently format their posts in the way you have prescribed... Deleting posts or excluding members for not following your rubric is juvenile.

It's juvenile to want to set up rules and then penalize people for not following those rules?
There have been threads like this one, but no one's suggested doing exactly as I have. I tried to solve any issues I found in those with my own suggestion.

I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

You speak of discussion, but you have repeatedly dismissed EVERY other suggestion than your own... with fallacious logic and spite. Every other suggestion (except yours) can be abused, right? Your solution is simple and elegant and complete, right? Why even post?

In case there are more people who agree with me. The more people behind a suggestion, the more influence it has.
I do think that my suggestion has been the least prone to abuse so far, and any suggestion I haven't agreed with I've tried my best to explain why. I think there's more spite in your post than in any post I've made so far.

I've acknowledged that my solution isn't perfect twice, and you've quoted both those times:

I'm not saying it WILL work but definitively saying it WON'T work is just annoying and unprovable.

and

... Click whores and spammers will never go away, but with just a very simple edit to the sticky on that board, and everyone doing their part to help out even just a tiny bit, it really would make a world of difference.

Why did you create this topic if you'd already PMd an Admin?

Because they said it was a good idea and, like I've already said, if I got people to agree with me then maybe the change would implemented sooner.

[/b] I feel like you're trying to get the community to uphold whatever rules you set up. If nothing needs to be changed other than the sticky, how's that going? What actual progress has been made with this topic? If you want this to be just like reddit, why did you create an account at TPF?

Well, it's clearly not going, and that's why I'm still replying to this post. Progress is that this is the most viewed suggestion on this board, and hopefully and administrator will say something about it soon. I never said I wanted TPF to be like Reddit, I just think a system that works over there could be very beneficial here. You said you strive for your ideals, didn't you? That's exactly what I'm doing.

You know, for some who calls out others for using "fallacious logic and spite" you use an AWFUL lot of it.

Hopefully I helped with some of your misunderstanding. Sorry I left out some jargon, I didn't find it all that relevant.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Dichotomy on January 14, 2016, 10:34:40 am
Name Calling? Ok, you win. Bye bye. Good luck in life.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: manducator on January 14, 2016, 10:51:55 am
Name Calling?

Can you quote the name calling? I can't find it.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 14, 2016, 09:14:22 pm
Name Calling?

Can you quote the name calling? I can't find it.

I can't either. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Didn't you say you strive for your ideals? If you're unable to respond just say so, don't cop out by saying i called you "names" when i didn't.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: UsernamesGiveMeAnxiety on January 14, 2016, 10:20:20 pm
Got a little off topic I see. :)
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 14, 2016, 10:22:35 pm
I have a variation of what i've suggest. Which is this thing :
The best way to do it, is to make people earn point given by the man who posted the WIP.

Everytime you see a good comment, helpfull one, you give a like. So that way, others earns points that will allow them to post. And they will after posting, loose a amount of point. (Like 5 to 10) and They'll need to earn it back. It's working on a french producer forum so far and the only thing is, that it needs to be moderated like crazy. The others hard thing is, what's a good, helpfull, usefull comment ?

Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track. The comment  will actually be usefull and will at least fill one of 2 criteria :
1. What did you feel about this track. Did this track made you travel, dream, etc... (Commenting "I like it" won't work and will make you lose your point.)
2. What did you think about the structure, the mix and the sounds in general ? (There's always something to sa)

So basically, if you're more into technical stuff, comment about everything you notice about the mix, mastering, effects use, sound design, etc...
BUT if you're more into creativity, then comment about the feelings of the song, the atmosphere, the ambiance, etc...

How will this work ? The point is automatically added after you post a comment. If the comment isn't at least 3 sentences and doesn't match the 2 criteria, then the moderator will remove it, or the actual OP of the thread will report it and a moderator will remove it. Once it has been remove, you lost your point.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 15, 2016, 12:26:21 am
Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track.

Do you mean we'd have to review 15 tracks before posting our own? If each comment = 1 point, and you leave 1 comment per track, that'd be 15 tracks. I think that's too many...

The comment  will actually be usefull and will at least fill one of 2 criteria :
1. What did you feel about this track. Did this track made you travel, dream, etc... (Commenting "I like it" won't work and will make you lose your point.)
2. What did you think about the structure, the mix and the sounds in general ? (There's always something to sa)

So basically, if you're more into technical stuff, comment about everything you notice about the mix, mastering, effects use, sound design, etc...
BUT if you're more into creativity, then comment about the feelings of the song, the atmosphere, the ambiance, etc...

I'm suggesting something similar. I think my criteria could be more efficient because it's defined by the person posting the track for review. It doesn't help too much if someone is looking for feedback on their sound design and someone comments on their mixing or arrangement. Different producers hold different values, and what's important to one doesn't necessarily have to matter to the other.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.

Can you link to that forum?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 15, 2016, 12:44:09 am
Everytime you comment a track, you earn a point. This point is worthless. Except that when you have 15 of those points, you can at your turn post a track.

Do you mean we'd have to review 15 tracks before posting our own? If each comment = 1 point, and you leave 1 comment per track, that'd be 15 tracks. I think that's too many...
I will prevent spam heavily tho.

I've seen this in another forum. (French FL studio users forum) It worked perfectly and there's more users than here. (It's also older than this forum. 15 years old...)

So, tell me what you think.

Can you link to that forum?
Here. http://www.fruityclub.net/forum/ (http://www.fruityclub.net/forum/)

You'll need to click there to see the actual "Sharing track" part.
(http://puu.sh/mw1Xi/ebbe6fc092.png)

You'll be able to notice that the comment are actually mostly longer. Although, It's hard to moderate but most of the time. The users warned the person and then the staff come pay a visit where the comments aren't good enough.

Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Gabe D on January 15, 2016, 12:54:21 am
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Babasmas on January 15, 2016, 01:00:02 am
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.
Learning is free here. that's the actual point the the forum. You can learn things here.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 15, 2016, 01:10:07 am
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.

Yeah this came up already, here's what I replied:

In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 15, 2016, 07:42:08 am
Guys, I really believe most of you are super overthinking this.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 15, 2016, 08:15:58 am
With a 15 points limit, there would be like 7 tracks posted on this forum by now.... :P  That´s the approximate number of users who have earned enough.  Many don´t give points when they receive feedback. Many don´t even give thanks when they receive feedback.  I would like to have the moderators weigh in on this discussion.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 15, 2016, 08:18:44 am
Guys, I really believe most of you are super overthinking this.

That's what I'm saying...

With a 15 points limit, there would be like 7 tracks posted on this forum by now.... :P  That´s the approximate number of users who have earned enough.  Many don´t give points when they receive feedback. Many don´t even give thanks when they receive feedback.  I would like to have the moderators weigh in on this discussion.

Yeah I agree. It's such an easy fix too, and it'd be a huge help. Just today I've seen like 3 posts on there by people who have all made less than 5 posts.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 15, 2016, 08:23:56 am
Guys, I really believe most of you are super overthinking this.

That's what I'm saying...

I meant you too :D
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: AshleysBrother on January 15, 2016, 09:11:18 am
I have a couple things to say, I'll try and split up my posts as they are kind of mutually exclusive.

First and foremost:

It is my personal opinion that trying to have these kinds of feedback threads DO NOT AND WILL NOT EVER WORK.
I find that in a lot of ways, it's kind of like /r/gonewild except for that there are no females and none of the guys are gay. Everyone wants to post their massive dick pic, but none of those people posting them want to look at other pictures of dicks. Maybe if they're like 17 inches long or some crazy shit but even then they just don't care.

IN MY OPINION
A better way to go about having producers give/get feedback is in a live context, much like the one we used to have over at plug.dj and now currently have at sharcu.be.
The idea is that everyone gets in line to play one song. When it's your turn, you play your song, everyone listens to it at the same time and can comment, and then when your one song is done, you go to the end of the line.

This way, you get real-time feedback, you can interact with the people giving you feedback, and there is an incredibly minimal amount of bullshit feedback.

Now, with that said, this doesn't really help our dilemma on this website, so I want to try and weigh in with my 2 cents about how we can try and improve it as a relatively small, tight-knit community of producers.

I believe the best way to get people to post feedback is to not allow someone to start a new thread in the feedback section unless they have posted a minimum of three comments in the feedback section. Shouldn't be terribly mind-boggling to code, and in order to fight shitty feedback (which is pretty much always going to be a thing), you require those comments to contain at least fifteen words.

Obviously this wouldn't completely remove spam (people could always just copy/paste a word ten times), but if it was compounded with a system where users could flag comments as spam, you could really keep spam at a minimum since it's very obvious when someone is insincere with ten words. To further streamline the process for mods, you could say that if 5 different people flag it as spam then it is automatically removed. I don't think 5 is too low of a number because really what motivation is there for someone to want to remove someone's comments?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 15, 2016, 10:38:17 am
Guys, I really believe most of you are super overthinking this.

That's what I'm saying...

I meant you too :D

Ok, give me a simpler solution.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: manducator on January 15, 2016, 10:59:06 am
I find that in a lot of ways, it's kind of like /r/gonewild except for that there are no females and none of the guys are gay. Everyone wants to post their massive dick pic, but none of those people posting them want to look at other pictures of dicks. Maybe if they're like 17 inches long or some crazy shit but even then they just don't care.

Can you believe this is the best explanation I have ever read?
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 15, 2016, 11:09:16 am
Ok, give me a simpler solution.
Stop counting beans and worrying so much over who 'deserves' to get feedback. It's a court of popularity, and no amount of dictatorship will improve that.


edit: I did have a suggestion earlier in the thread though: http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=1106.msg7644#msg7644
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: VOIID on January 15, 2016, 12:23:12 pm
Why dont we just delete the "Finished Tracks" subforum
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Gabe D on January 15, 2016, 05:50:03 pm
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.
Learning is free here. that's the actual point the the forum. You can learn things here.

Yes I know. That is the reason I am here. smh
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Gabe D on January 15, 2016, 05:51:53 pm
Question for the Point System: What about guys like me?

I have not been to school for music, so I dont know all the technical terms to the T. There may be times where I want to leave feedback but dont have confidence in the feedback Im giving since I have limited knowledge in production. But if I want to get feedback on what Im making, then Im going to have to leave feedback. I feel like my feedback may come across as generic or not very good in general. So I would fear that the moderator would remove my feedback and therefore I never get to post anything for review because my feedback score is low.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Not sure if you all have covered it yet or not.

Yeah this came up already, here's what I replied:

In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.

Does that make sense?

Thank you Sleepy! Makes perfect sense. I can definitely do that.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 15, 2016, 10:55:22 pm
Ok, give me a simpler solution.
Stop counting beans and worrying so much over who 'deserves' to get feedback. It's a court of popularity, and no amount of dictatorship will improve that.

In what sense is what I'm suggesting anything near a dictatorship? I'm suggesting we set up rules and help enforce them, as a community. You can't just keep saying "it just won't work because that kind of stuff doesn't work," when it's been shown to work very nicely in another community that's been around for a while (r/edmproduction).

edit: I did have a suggestion earlier in the thread though: http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=1106.msg7644#msg7644

Uh must've missed that. It's not a bad suggestion, and it could be a nice addition if we just combined the WIP and Finished Tracks sections of the forum for just feedback and had a new section for showcasing stuff. I'd imagine the showcase would get super spammy though, and there's no real way to check how many thumbs up a post has before opening it. For posting a track in something like that I think a minimum post count would work out better than for the feedback thing.

Thank you Sleepy! Makes perfect sense. I can definitely do that.

No problem :P
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: elixir on January 16, 2016, 07:13:53 pm
I agree with this. It is not hard to write a mod for that section. You must post twice in that section before each thread can be made.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Cosmic Fugue on January 17, 2016, 08:57:29 am
The trouble with that kind of system is that people will just quickly post a couple of "COOL TRACK LOVE IT" messages and then post their own.

I think as the forum gets bigger the real problems with that forum will be (1) people who come in just to promote something, and (2) the sheer volume of posts. I think having a strict limit on posting there would be more useful than a feedback-for-feedback arrangement. For example, you have to have 50 posts on the forum before you can post there, and each user is limited to one post there per week.

Or maybe you could spend some (5?) of your "Honor" points to make a post there.

If someone's a valuable and helpful member of the community I think they deserve to show off a track every now and then, even if their helpful posts haven't been in the feedback forum.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Bertie South on January 17, 2016, 10:00:14 pm
Is it totally impossible for the feedback process to just operate with a degree of altruism and generosity? If you come up with a system to make it 'fair' there will always be a minority who try and game it. I dunno, maybe just give generously and think of it as a chance to earn some karma points.

I know this point has kind of been made, but if people leave half-assed feedback because they have to but can't/don't want to, the usefulness of this part of the forum actually gets worse rather than better. The quality of feedback gets diluted, but the quantity attracts more people looking for easy feedback, and everything goes to shit. Possibly. Either way I think it's worse to have an incentive to leave insincere feedback than to have no incentive to leave any other than decency and consideration for others.

If this really is an issue I think AshleysBrother might be right that the feedback mechanism just needs to be in a non-forum format.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 18, 2016, 05:59:04 am
I'm going to break down what's wrong with the section, what I'm suggesting, why what I'm suggesting could be beneficial, and then maybe why other things that have been suggested aren't a better alternative, then I'm editing back into my original post.

Things wrong with the "Finished Tracks" and "WIPs" sections:


What I'm suggesting

Why this could work:

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback. We've also established that some people leave crappy feedback. If there are two feedback posts for every song post, then we'd have double the amount feedback than tracks in the section. That's a good thing.

Also, if people are required to leave feedback before asking for feedback, then we'd get way less one-timers who come to the forum to post their track and then leave. They don't contribute anything, and I think it's fair they don't receive feedback.

Now, a person posting a track could just leave shitty feedback on two tracks or not all and just claim they did, but the fact that they're required to link back to this feedback in a way prevents this. I think it makes sense to think that if you're going to ask for reviews and show the reviews you've left, you'd want to be linking to the kind of reviews you'd want to be getting. Kinda like how presenting your resume for getting a good job doesn't require you showing just that you have done something, but that you did that something and you did it well. It's not something I can say for certain, but I think it's a fair assumption.

Another issue is not knowing what to leave feedback on. There are so many qualities of a track to comment on, leaving feedback might be discouraging because of this. Having the person posting a track specify what they want to receive feedback on makes it a lot easier to leave good feedback. If a person wants feedback on their sound design and says so, then you know what to look out for. This doesn't necessarily mean that you could only leave feedback on their sound design, any feedback helps. It's just a whole lot easier to leave good feedback when you know what to look for.

Some other things that have come up:

Point Systems
I maintain that point systems are a bad idea. If something is automated it can be easily abused. For example, if we need 3 points to post a track of our own and get a point for every feedback post we make on that section, then we could easily rack up as many points as we want by leaving a bunch of "sick drop bro" types of feedback, that don't really contribute anything. Like I said before, having to link back to the feedback you left may encourage better feedback.

Also, I think that if we want to encourage the idea of community and mutual helpfulness that this forum was based on, then we should rely more on the community to uphold its values rather some fancy coding, no? That's why I'm trying my best to base to this suggestion around everyone helping each other and not a cold, automated system that can be easily abused.

But I don't know a whole lot about music or its technicalities, how can I leave good feedback?
I mentioned before that you don't have to stick to what the person is asking for when leaving feedback (though it helps). I've also said that:

In the last track I posted I asked the forum to get feedback on my sound design and arrangement, as well as how the track made them feel. If you don't have whole lot of experience with music, then at the very least you're a human with emotions. Emotional feedback is probably just as important as any technical feedback. As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem.

Hopefully I've explained myself thoroughly enough. I acknowledge that this system isn't perfect, but so far it's the best I've seen. (https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/comments/41hfbm/feedback_thread_january_18/) I encourage criticism, but if you're going to say that something's bad, don't just leave it at that. Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.

Here's an example of what an ideal post would look like. (http://theproducersforum.com/index.php?topic=1222.0)

Thanks :P
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: wayfinder on January 18, 2016, 07:57:28 am

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback.
Have we, though? You've said it, but that's not the same thing. :)


- Is it really a problem if tracks have just one or two people's feedback? Why?

- Is it really a problem if someone with a low post count receives feedback on a track? Why? Why do you consider some people's tracks "spam"? What do you think they want out of the experience? Is it any different from what someone with a three-digit post count wants? Why do you think it's unfair that they receive feedback? Feedback is something for the person who leaves it to give, not something to which you're entitled (or not entitled!)

- If you enforce an amount of feedback given, you encourage the sort of useless alibi feedback posts you ostensibly decry (and you will discourage people from giving any feedback at all if you try to enforce quality standards for it, yes, even those whose feedback would meet them.) I believe your scheme would overall decrease the amount and quality of feedback given, except maybe from a handful of people—and by your rules only they would be allowed to ask for more feedback, so you'd be effectively closing off the section for most everyone else.

- The people who struggle to give meaningful feedback are the ones who need good feedback the most. You say that emotional feedback is "probably just as important as any technical feedback", well there you went and made your own feedback quality rules redundant, because "sick drop bro" is some valid-ass emotional feedback, even if you may prefer it in more flowery language. Also love the threatening note on which you end the quote: "As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem." What happens if there is a problem? Who determines that? You sure left the door open to make it a problem if you wanted to!

- That stasi shit about reporting people for infractions is hella creepy. What is this, some kind of police state? Relax! Maybe if a track didn't get a lot of feedback, that's feedback in itself.

You're trying to turn this into a job, and feedback into a kind of currency, when it's really something that can only be freely given.



Final note:

Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.
That is a) wrong, b) an unreasonable demand to make, and c) certainly not yours to demand in the first place. People do contribute by pointing out faulty reasoning, even when they don't come up with a complete alternative plan. You're not the King of Posting Who Makes the Rules Around Here, and nobody is under compulsion to jump through the hoops you hold up.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: sleepy on January 18, 2016, 10:04:18 am

We've already established that there are more people posting music than feedback.
Have we, though? You've said it, but that's not the same thing. :)

It's not really an opinion. There's definitely more people leaving tracks than there are people contributing feedback. You're just picking at my words for the sake of it.

- Is it really a problem if tracks have just one or two people's feedback? Why?

I guess not, but the more opinions you get on a track the more viewpoints you get on it, and what one person hears another person might not. Not everyone has the same setup, and it's nice to have a variety of opinions on a track. I guess that's not a universal truth, but I'm guessing others would probably feel the same.

- Is it really a problem if someone with a low post count receives feedback on a track? Why? Why do you consider some people's tracks "spam"? What do you think they want out of the experience? Is it any different from what someone with a three-digit post count wants? Why do you think it's unfair that they receive feedback? Feedback is something for the person who leaves it to give, not something to which you're entitled (or not entitled!)

I do think it's a problem, especially when the post is one of the only two posts that person has made (which I've seen frequently). I think it's reasonable to say that a person who regularly contributes to the forum is more deserving of feedback than someone who doesn't contribute and just wants a few more followers or plays on his music. Once again, this is an opinion, but I think it's a reasonable opinion.

- If you enforce an amount of feedback given, you encourage the sort of useless alibi feedback posts you ostensibly decry (and you will discourage people from giving any feedback at all if you try to enforce quality standards for it, yes, even those whose feedback would meet them.) I believe your scheme would overall decrease the amount and quality of feedback given, except maybe from a handful of people—and by your rules only they would be allowed to ask for more feedback, so you'd be effectively closing off the section for most everyone else.

Is that how you go about making your music? Without any quality standards? How would enforcing quality standards lower the quality of the feedback? You're basically saying "We shouldn't enforce quality standards because if we did, people would leave lower quality feedback," except with more words. It doesn't exactly follow.

- The people who struggle to give meaningful feedback are the ones who need good feedback the most.

Because you say so? Didn't you just say that no one's entitled to feedback anymore than anyone else?


You say that emotional feedback is "probably just as important as any technical feedback", well there you went and made your own feedback quality rules redundant, because "sick drop bro" is some valid-ass emotional feedback, even if you may prefer it in more flowery language. Also love the threatening note on which you end the quote: "As long as you're sincere and openly show that you're trying to give quality feedback, I don't think there should be a problem." What happens if there is a problem? Who determines that? You sure left the door open to make it a problem if you wanted to!

It didn't really seem threatening when I wrote it, it wasn't meant to be threatening, and I don't think it was interpreted that way by the person it was meant for either.

Also, what feedback quality rules are you talking about? Not entirely sure "redundant" is the word you're going for either. Probably the only "feedback quality rule" I've implied is to leave good feedback lol. Do I really have to specify what good feedback is?  I'd have to disagree that "sick drop bro" is "some valid-ass emotional feedback." Yes, it is emotional feedback, but it's not really helping the person who requested feedback. THAT'S what makes feedback good, helping the person who posted make decisions on future projects. Feedback that just says something is good might serve as a quick self-esteem boost, but is practically useless. Elaborating on why you liked certain parts and why you didn't like other parts is way more helpful.

- That stasi shit about reporting people for infractions is hella creepy. What is this, some kind of police state? Relax! Maybe if a track didn't get a lot of feedback, that's feedback in itself.

You're saying we shouldn't help enforce the rules we set up? How is this is even an argument?


Final note:

Provide an alternative and explain why it's better. You're not contributing by just saying "oh that wouldn't work" and leaving it at that.
That is a) wrong, b) an unreasonable demand to make, and c) certainly not yours to demand in the first place. People do contribute by pointing out faulty reasoning, even when they don't come up with a complete alternative plan. You're not the King of Posting Who Makes the Rules Around Here, and nobody is under compulsion to jump through the hoops you hold up.

There have been a couple of people who say I'm wrong and leave it at that without explaining why or even pointing out my reasoning. You've tried your best but there's still tons of holes in your own explanations. I don't claim to be better than anyone else, I just don't think people who say I'm wrong and then leave are really contributing to the discussion, which is what forums are for, right?

I personally feel that the current feedback system isn't very good, and that people have no real incentive to leave helpful feedback, and I've given a suggestion to improve that section. That's all this is.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: ion on January 18, 2016, 11:00:50 am
Both Sleepy and Wayfinder has some valid points IMO.  My question now is how long is this debate going to unfold? None of the mods seem to weigh in on any discussions in the past week, so I really don´t see what other points can be made than the ones already brought up.
I am in a place where I feel don´t care what happens, as long as a decision is made, regarding how this section of the forum is supposed to work.
The reddit dick pic analogy, mentioned in earlier posts, is what best describes the section in its current state.  And if that is how it is supposed to be here, then I can live with it.  Because then I´ll know that I´ll chose carefully who I am willing to lend an ear, and give an opinion.

*edit: Horrible grammar
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Kontrol on January 18, 2016, 02:30:53 pm
i like this, i think the feeback section is important and we're missing the one thing we need for it to be great... the FEEDBACK!   :P

i like the idea about having to listen and give feedback to about 2-3 others when posting a track
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Bertie South on January 18, 2016, 04:35:50 pm
Urgh


The people wanting feedback are always going to vastly outnumber the people who feel capable/qualified to give it. For that reason alone a feedback forum will necessarily rely on a handful of individuals who readily give their time and insight because they like to help. Fancy rules are simply not going to compensate for that imbalance.


I actually like giving feedback, but I can only listen on headphones and there are only a few genres that I would feel comfortable commenting on, because I don't have enough knowledge of context to have a feel for what's good or not. The more specific the feedback you're looking for, the less likely there is actually anyone willing and able to give you that feedback. I would love to help people out with the finer points of their mixdowns, but I can't.


I really don't understand why you can't just encourage people to be helpful but ultimately leave them to their own devices. That or just come up with a different system altogether. Trying to monitor and enforce feedback quotas etc. would suck the life out of this part of the forum at least as quickly as doing nothing.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: Cosmic Fugue on January 19, 2016, 03:32:54 am
I'm actually pretty happy with the feedback forum as it is. Most tracks get a comment or two. That's not terrible.

Personally I actually like giving feedback, so I've done so where I can. I don't give feedback on genres I don't really listen to or on remixes (because often I haven't heard the original track). I also try to find tracks by anyone who has left me feedback and reciprocate.

I think the only change it needs is "must have x posts before posting a track". I'd put x at somewhere between 20 and 50, and I realize this would mean I can't post tracks for a while. Maybe there should be a "must be a member for x weeks before posting tracks" rule too. Both of those are reasonable and easy to implement.

If members of the community (rather than drive-by promoters or spammers) are the main people posting tracks, I think the community will make it work. If we see someone being spammy or trying to game the system, we don't give them good feedback.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: IKIS on January 20, 2016, 08:34:15 am
Yeah this is definitely a problem.
Title: Re: "Finished Tracks" Section Sucks rn
Post by: RylanT on January 20, 2016, 09:15:53 am
Why not limit it to one new topic, per member, per week?