You have some truth to this, but i've mentioned this point to Lydian and it's basically the mindset that comes along with that low barrier and underestimated skill involved.

I think that's really the heart of Zau's message here...is he makes his friggin living off of this sort of thing, and to have people some what piss on his trials and tribulations and make light of it in a ten min youtube tutorial or ask for feedback with out proper practice and discipline? it's really insulting and brings down the entire average level of the art.

Please Senpai... does there really have to be any sort of "requirement" to ask for feedback? I've never felt insulted by anyone who has asked for feedback. I could give less shits whether they're on their 1st track or their 100th track.

If I listen to a track and think that it's lacking in the harmonies and melodies then I'll tell them. If I hear that their track is off key or contains to many clashing notes to the point that it's obvious I point them to some basic music theory.

There's no need to be all "sad state of music" about it which is what bugs me about this thread in the first place... If Zau wants to create imaginary "feedback requirements" then let that be his code.

It was a tutorial video for something and the guy used one of his tracks in the video, it's not like I was seeking/checking out beginner videos.

Bad Zau. 

I do precess the hell out of it, yes, but without bouncing first.

To me, but that's just a personal taste, ambient sounds shouldn't be 'dry'. Tons of delays and reverbs on them and usually I use more wet then dry sounds, sometimes I use 100% wet sound, leaving me only with the reverb and delay itself.

Valhalla's Shimmer and Audio Damage's DrDevice are my goto ambient fx:

Shimmer:

https://valhalladsp.com/shop/reverb/valhalla-shimmer/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARG536f3FI

DrDevice:

https://www.audiodamage.com/effects/product.php?pid=AD014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHs7W6gasjA

Thanks. I'll be sure to check out DrDevice. I've never heard of that plugin before.

This is where buss effects come into play.

We had a conversation about the balance of effect and dry signal.

depending on the chain and the sound you're after will ultimately determine how ambient you want.

the automation controls how the sound modulates over time. This can be effect automation and/or actual synth automation.

I would like to talk with you more about that automation subject maybe once I'm done with this weeks homework senpai. 

To me, dissonance can imply something that is pleasing to the ear. For example, a minor 9th interval (again, I'm sure you know what that is). I hear minor 9ths a lot in 20th century classical music, and it sounds cool. I also hear it in big band horn arrangements, but they only occur for very brief intervals, like 1/16th notes and 1/32nd notes. But when I hear a minor 9th interval in the context of electronic music and used in a sustained chord over the span of 4 measures, then that just sounds awful and 'clashing'.
 I just wanna say minor 9ths sound beautiful, dissonant sure but you can def sustain them. And as for people who are naively unaware of their incompetence at actual theory, just let them progress(or not progress) on their own. More room at the top if plebs can't figure out how to stay in a key. 

I love minor 9ths as well. Dissonance in context is what determines whether it sounds good or not. Like if you were to play a diminished chord it will sound like balls alone. Using it in between a V and vi chord though creates a tension which sounds great when resolved. I'm sure you understand and I definitely agree with you.

Ok. Just to reiterate what I have already said in my original post, the rant wasn't about good or bad music. I was actually very specific. The rant was about the fact that the people without any background in music and no ear training don't think it's important to work on developing their ears, despite the fact that your ears are the most important tool you own in this production thing. That's all.

Yes. With that being said how does one develop their ears in the first place? Idk how you did it but the way that I did it was by being a garbage instrumentalist until I became not so garbage and then transferred to a garbage producer and became less garbage through time. So for you to rant about this...

I've come across a few tracks now that sound like they literally placed a few random MIDI notes on the Piano Roll and call it a 'melody'. When I random, I mean random. Clashing notes everywhere, notes that do not belong in the scale at all, minor AND major key centers going on at the same time(!) etc..

This does not contribute to a sad state of music. What DOES contribute to a sad state of music is someone who has obviously heard these tracks and refuses to give them feedback because they are "beginners without any music theory".

I don't really check out music posted by other people especially when they put a disclaimer saying that they are beginners without any music theory, who have made less than 10/20/30/50 tracks or God forbid, less than 5 tracks. But every time I do, it's a horror show.

You're over here ranting about producers who don't focus on ear training and yet you aren't doing anything about it. If you want to try to make an influence on the community like the one on reddit then why don't you stop ignoring the music of these beginners and actually give them some feedback instead of ranting about it?

Why is it that generally, people don't hesitate to throw mixing advice out there, that it's such a necessity to be good at it, and the minute someone talks about equally important stuff like ear training, suddenly it becomes a topic that only elitists talk about and not meant for beginners?

Maybe because it IS a necessity to be good at mixing. A track sounds like garbage if it isn't mixed correctly regardless of whether the person writing it has a trained or an untrained ear.

Now lets bring ear training into the mix. Someone who is able to recognize every interval, chord, scale, mode and etc.... will have an advantage starting off as a beginner. However without good mixing your production are still going to sound like ass. Whereas in some dance music you can get away with not having an ear for notes as shown in the track I posted in response to Farley.

I didn't call you elitist for bringing up ear training and I'm not saying ear training is a bad thing. I called you elitist for saying this.

I don't really check out music posted by other people especially when they put a disclaimer saying that they are beginners without any music theory, who have made less than 10/20/30/50 tracks or God forbid, less than 5 tracks.

That is just sad dude. Beginners are the ones who need it the most. You're contradicting yourself by saying that and then saying this...

It needs to be addressed somehow, so that the people who are unaware become 'aware'.

If you know somethings wrong do something about it. I'm all down for there being an ear training section within the forum if any of the mods would be kind enough to create it as a topic.

Hey guys so I'm about 20 hours into this track. Most of that time has been spent struggling with the mix. I showed it to a friend and he suggested that the bass end was funky. My ears are way to fatigued to be able to tell so I would desperately appreciate some feedback on both the notes, and the mix.

NOTICE: 1:45-2:00 IS NOT PART OF THE ARRANGEMENT/MIX

I wrote it to get down the idea for the chorus but it's not mixed or arranged properly at all. Everything else I would appreciate if you guys could give it a listen.

https://clyp.it/nnqiu1a2

I mean of course if you don't have good ears you should be working on them. The only thing that bugs me is that this post comes across as elitist as hell.

"I don't really check out music posted by other people especially when they put a disclaimer saying that they are beginners without any music theory, who have made less than 10/20/30/50 tracks or God forbid, less than 5 tracks. But every time I do, it's a horror show."

Seriously dude... I get what you're saying but vinceasot pretty much summed it up.

there are beginners out there who are just starting out

I understand what you're when you mention that some people can't hear major or minor key centers. Hell some people don't even know what a key center is. Should that really stop them from making music though even if it's bad? We all have to start somewhere and beginners are often unconscious of their own incompetence. I don't think that's anything to be upset about.

Yes all those artists that I mentioned can play piano and guitar away from technology. That's not really the point I'm trying to make though. Take me for example. I can play guitar and yet the stuff i'm working on is mediocre at best from a production standpoint. There's a separation between being a great producer and a great instrumentalist. Without technology we would have less of those great producers. Is it that you just get frustrated when you hear producers who think that the problem with their music is the mix when really it's the notes?

Yeah skrillex is great and all. I actually knew from first to last before I learned skrillex. Then in 7th grade skrillex became big and I found out it was the from first to last vocalist and was pretty impressed. Thought dubstep was garbage at the time though.

To summarize it up sometimes beginners are simply unconscious of their own incompetence and that's why they write music that is bad from a musical standpoint. You can help change that by not getting frustrated about it and actually offering them some feedback instead of being all elitist about it...