Author Topic: I dont understand modes (Read 20995 times)

R3Mington · « **on:** April 05, 2016, 02:05:39 am »

Can you guys help explain?

I dont understand how to play with off a scale and why they come in.

I cant even formalize a question i guess because i dont understand them.

i got theres 7 different modes but thats about it.

how are they relative

Vidale · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2016, 02:46:20 am »

Well the thing with modes is the next. Your normal everyday average major scale is the first mode Ionian, and each subsequent mode is just the same scale just that you start at the next note of the scale. So:

Let's use the C major scale as an example for simplicity:

Your First mode (Ionian).... and the scale would go as follows:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Then your next mode will use the EXACT SAME NOTES. The difference is that you'll position yourself so that the first note of the scale is the next note... in this case D.

So, your second Mode (Dorian) would go as this:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

And you continue the process to identify every subsequent mode with the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh note of of our first major scale.

So... what's the difference? aren't those the same notes? Shouldn't it sound the same?... Technically yes, but when you position yourself playing on a chord progression with a mode you'll see that you have a very specific character for each mode.

If you play a Dorian scale over a certain chord progression you'll get a certain feel, and if you suddenly change to Aeolian Mode the tone will change drastically.

Each and every mode is subject of study. You can find some great youtube videos about each mode and how to use them.

Check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljD8y0Totrw
It explains the Dorian Mode in detail, then you can dig around as you please to satisfy your hunger for knowledge.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2016, 07:42:51 am »

You have your notes in the scale, start on a different note, but play all the notes in the scale that correspond to the scale key, and end where you begin.

That's another way to say things in a more uneducated manner.

FarleyCZ · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2016, 10:39:01 am »

Quote from: Marrow Machines on April 05, 2016, 07:42:51 am

You have your notes in the scale, start on a different note, but play all the notes in the scale that correspond to the scale key, and end where you begin.

That's another way to say things in a more uneducated manner.

Ha! That's the way I understand it!

ZAU · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2016, 01:53:04 pm »

Perhaps a simpler way would be to memorize the characteristics of each mode. For example, Lydian's characteristic is # (sharp) 4th. Mixolydian is b (flat) 7th. Ionian is your good old major scale and Aeolian is the natural minor scale. So on and so forth.

ZAU · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2016, 12:11:40 am »

Just to add to what I wrote previously, the prerequisite is of course to be able to play your good old major scale in all keys. So for the Lydian example, play the major scale, but raise ("sharp"en) the fourth scale degree. So C Lydian would look like this:

C D E F# (<--- THIS IS THE LYDIAN CHARACTERISTIC) G A B C

Hope this makes sense.

Lydian · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2016, 12:13:20 am »

Oh hey there. ^.^

People have a tendency to overcomplicate modes. The simplest way to understand modes is that they're simply a scale starting on a different note. Ionian is the same as major and Aeolian is the same as minor.

Here is what modes look like relative to the key of C major.

C Ionian CDEGAB
D Dorian DEFGABC
E Phrygian EFGABCD
F Lydian FGABCDE
G Mixolydian GABCDEF
A Aeolian ABCDEFG
B Locrian BCDEFGA

HERE is where thing's get sort of complicated.

The MOST important thing when it comes to modes is to understand that in order to use them in a musical context the harmony underneath needs to support that mode. What makes music modal is the tonal center of the harmony. In the same way that C Major is not the same as A minor even though they share the same notes. A song in F Lydian is not the same as a song in G mixolydian. You can play a G mixolydian scale over a C ionian chord progression all you want and the song will never be in G mixolydian because the chord progression implies that the home is C Ionian. What makes music modal is the "home" of the chord progression.

This song for example in A dominant phyrgian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdCrG13ATh0

Notice how the chord progression always resolves back to it's home chord? Well in this case that home chord is an A major chord. Why not just call it A major/ionian then?

The reason is because the surrounding notes of the chord progression are NOT in A major/ionian.

The notes of A major/Ionian are A, B, C♯, D, E, F♯, and G♯(1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7)
The notes in that song however are A, Bb, C#, D, E, F, and G (1 - ♭2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - ♭6 - ♭7)

The characteristics of Dominant Phrygian are b2, b6, and b7 relative to a normal major scale. The song uses the same notes and it's home chord is A Major which is why the song is in A Dominant Phrygian and not A Ionian/Major.

Obviously thats a lot of thinking involved. Learning the sound of a mode is the most important thing. Once you've learnt the sound of a mode you don't need to think about it and recognizing them will come to your ears naturally.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2016, 12:24:16 am »

All these names for these things, which are good.

But why can't we just go more simpler and say that they are just different starting points on a given scale?

Unless those words used for a specific mode have some other harder thought behind it, i don't feel the need to blast open the music theory books here...just yet.

But it's cool though, i just took it with out having to memorize all that stuff.

:|

Lydian · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2016, 12:50:11 am »

Quote

But why can't we just go more simpler and say that they are just different starting points on a given scale?

Because if OP ever hopes to apply them then he/she needs to understand how modes relate in a musical context.

The best way to do this IMO is to look up "(Insert Mode) backing track" and then just improvise to it using the corresponding mode. That's how I learned it anyway. Music theory is useless if you aren't able to translate that theory over to your ears.

Vidale · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2016, 01:15:04 am »

Quote from: Lydian on April 06, 2016, 12:50:11 am

The best way to do this IMO is to look up "(Insert Mode) backing track" and then just improvise to it using the corresponding mode. That's how I learned it anyway. Music theory is useless if you aren't able to translate that theory over to your ears.

I totally Agree.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2016, 02:15:40 am »

There should be a less convoluted way to speak to the masses instead of being so hoity toity about what you learn.

It's one of my biggest gripes about certain text books and the word choice.

We get it, your field is difficult or what ever and have rigor, but if you really want to make sure the basis understands what going on, it's better to make things as clear as possible.

other wise it's just a basis of creating a false sense of rigor rather than actually being substantial in the first place.

Gotta consider your audience and the ways to adapt the lesson to the student.

But w/e, i seek to make things easier because i see a whole bunch of snobby rubbish in this particular subject of production, mix engineering, and music.

ain't gotta be fancy pants to know how to talk and walk, you just gotta know how to talk the talk and walk the walk. but still use that knowledge in your own movements.

Besides, tablet references make just as good of use as reference than actually memorizing a name or what ever.

Not attacking, just something to consider.

Mussar · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2016, 02:39:07 am »

If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you like it, use it.

Either way, stop devolving into arguments and please try to stay constructive. We're all trying to learn and improve here, and calling other people elitist or stupid or anything like that doesn't help us accomplish that.

Lydian · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2016, 03:32:13 am »

Quote from: Mussar on April 06, 2016, 02:39:07 am

If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you like it, use it.

Either way, stop devolving into arguments and please try to stay constructive. We're all trying to learn and improve here, and calling other people elitist or stupid or anything like that doesn't help us accomplish that.

Lol.

It is impossible to discuss modes without different opinions my friend. Back at the Ultimate Guitar forum they even made a sticky about them because they got tired of all the "mode" threads.

I don't find marrows post offensive at all. He was just trying to say that OP most likely doesn't understand a thing I said and that I should stop overcomplicating things with terminology they probably don't understand.

Fair enough.

The thing when it comes to music theory is that sometimes in order to understand the more advanced topics you need a solid foundation with the fundamentals. That's why grasping modes can be tough for some beginners because they might not have the foundation to actually understand them.

Sure it's easy to say that modes are just the scale starting on a different note. That's a perfectly fine definition.

With that being said the definition is completing lacking when it comes to the characteristics of a mode in the first place. Like Zau said, a #4 creates lydian. That's important to understand because then you know that if you want to create a modal chord progression you should emphasize that #4 to bring out the true characteristic of Lydian.

Finally what a mode is and what makes music modal is a completely different thing. The tonal center is what determines whether or not you'll be able to apply them in a music context in the first place. All of this depth we are losing by just saying "Modes are scales starting on a different note". I use this definition because it's the EASIEST thing for a beginner to grasp.

Music theory is like mixing though. If you don't practice it you won't get better. You can't master a compressor by reading about just like you can't master modes without practicing them.

Which is why improvising over modal backing tracks to me is the best way to learn what they are and how to train your ears to them. Learning by doing is just so important.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2016, 03:35:19 am »

Quote from: Mussar on April 06, 2016, 02:39:07 am

If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you like it, use it.

Either way, stop devolving into arguments and please try to stay constructive. We're all trying to learn and improve here, and calling other people elitist or stupid or anything like that doesn't help us accomplish that.

not devolving into argument, i am just saying that there will be more explanation towards a more fundamental understanding of music theory than there is to a lay man's view, as evident in this topic here.

All i was saying was, that please consider that when talking to people on the internet until you understand their understanding and communication level.

I am sorry you couldn't get that from my posts.

I know what people are talking about, but other people don't seem to consider the other person's knowledge when dealing with the question.

I mean, why would you blast all this stuff to a person who is learning when you should take baby steps? It's clearly evident in the person's question other wise OP wouldn't of even asked in the first place.
Edit:i never singled any one out, it was an attack at the thoughts behind actions of insecure people.

NEVER, have i sensed that any one who posted here/on this topic was a snob or elitist.

Quote from: Lydian on April 06, 2016, 03:32:13 am

Quote from: Mussar on April 06, 2016, 02:39:07 am
If you don't like it, don't use it.

If you like it, use it.

Either way, stop devolving into arguments and please try to stay constructive. We're all trying to learn and improve here, and calling other people elitist or stupid or anything like that doesn't help us accomplish that.

Lol. It is impossible to discuss modes without different opinions my friend. Back at the Ultimate Guitar forum they even made a sticky about them because they got tired of all the "mode" threads.

I don't find marrows post offensive at all. He was just trying to say that OP most likely doesn't understand a thing I said and that I should stop overcomplicating things with terminology they probably don't understand.

Fair enough.

The thing when it comes to music theory is that sometimes in order to understand the more advanced topics you need a solid foundation with the fundamentals. That's why grasping modes can be tough for some beginners because they might not have the foundation to actually understand them.

Sure it's easy to say that modes are just the scale starting on a different note. That's a perfectly fine definition.

With that being said the definition is completing lacking when it comes to the characteristics of a mode in the first place. Like Zau said, a #4 creates lydian. That's important to understand because then you know that if you want to create a modal chord progression you should emphasize that #4 to bring out the true characteristic of Lydian.

Finally what a mode is and what makes music modal is a completely different thing. The tonal center is what determines whether or not you'll be able to apply them in a music context in the first place. All of this depth we are losing by just saying "Modes are scales starting on a different note". I use this definition because it's the EASIEST thing for a beginner to grasp.

Music theory is like mixing though. If you don't practice it you won't get better. You can't master a compressor by reading about just like you can't master modes without practicing them.

Which is why improvising over modal backing tracks to me is the best way to learn what they are and how to train your ears to them. Learning by doing is just so important.

And lydian did a fine job of answering my question which has a little more detail about why the words are used. Thank you.

You can't expect an elementary level person to understand master level concepts. and music theory is convoluted enough with out using building blocks.

Lydian · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2016, 03:48:51 am »

Quote

All i was saying was, that please consider that when talking to people on the internet until you understand their understanding and communication level.

Looks like I was spot on.

Seriously though. Modal chord progressions are beautiful. Modes aren't all about scales. They're much more about the resolution/home/tonal center of the harmony/melody. This is a point that I think is just so obviously overlooked when I see people trying to explain them with the "novice" definition.

Author Topic: I dont understand modes (Read 20995 times)

R3Mington

I dont understand modes

Vidale

Re: I dont understand modes

Marrow Machines

Re: I dont understand modes

FarleyCZ

Re: I dont understand modes

ZAU

Re: I dont understand modes

ZAU

Re: I dont understand modes

Lydian

Re: I dont understand modes

Marrow Machines

Re: I dont understand modes

Lydian

Re: I dont understand modes

Vidale

Re: I dont understand modes

Marrow Machines

Re: I dont understand modes

Mussar

Re: I dont understand modes

Lydian

Re: I dont understand modes

Marrow Machines

Re: I dont understand modes

Lydian

Re: I dont understand modes