WARNING: This one's gonna be long. But here goes anyway..

Music is at a sad state these days.

Yes, we have a bunch of tools to help us, and with the help of Scale and Chord plugins you can write a song with zero music theory! Sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Except, it isn't really.

I don't really check out music posted by other people especially when they put a disclaimer saying that they are beginners without any music theory, who have made less than 10/20/30/50 tracks or God forbid, less than 5 tracks. But every time I do, it's a horror show. I've come across a few tracks now that sound like they literally placed a few random MIDI notes on the Piano Roll and call it a 'melody'. When I random, I mean random. Clashing notes everywhere, notes that do not belong in the scale at all, minor AND major key centers going on at the same time(!) etc..

Yes, we're told time and time again that music theory will save us. But that's not usually the case either, apparently.

Because the thing I feel is the most important part in music production is not music theory or amazing sound design skills or perfect mixing, but EAR TRAINING. Training your ears. And hey, guess what? You need ear training when it comes to mixing as well, it's not just for composition skills. You need to train your ears to hear what an imbalanced mix sounds like. You need to be able to identify what is making the mix imbalanced in the first place. It's ALL about the ears, because guess what? All the music you and I make? We listen to it using our..... EARS!

And the same applies for composition. You need to be able to HEAR what 2 clashing notes sound like, and know that they are clashing with each other. It's a scary thought, isn't it... knowing that there are people in this world who are not able to hear what they are doing 'wrong' musically and yet are calling themselves 'producers' and 'releasing' music. It's like a blind race car driver... driving forward with a very fast car at full speed without being able to see what's in front of him. What happens? He crashes. FAST.

If you are reading this and happen to fall within the category of people I mentioned, please stop whatever you're doing, yes, even stop reading that music theory book you're reading. No amount of music theory is going to help you in the first place if you can't HEAR what you're doing. In fact, it's better to not know any music theory at all but be able to play well by ear. If you can do both, amazing. But I would choose a person who can play by ear any day over a person who can't and yet can read sheet music and know all the music theory in the world (unfortunately, I have encountered the latter more times than I would have liked to).

The reason why I'm ranting is because it's such a weird time for music/musicians/producers/engineers. No other profession in the world go through what we go through. Take a doctor, for example. You can't put on a white lab coat and stethoscope and walk into a hospital and say, 'Hey everybody! I'm a doctor' and off you go into the surgery room. But this is what is happening in the music industry. Anybody with a computer can download their DAW of choice without having any musical knowledge whatsoever and 'make a track'. How is this fair? Well, it's not, and I'm kind of over it. But that's a topic for an entirely different discussion. So what I'm saying is this. If you're going to prioritize anything at all, it's got to be ear training, at least do/learn that if you don't have a background in music and want to call yourself a producer.

At the end of the day, you have to remember this one thing: What good will it do if you can't HEAR what you're doing?

I hear what you're saying Zau, and understand your sentiment.  It seems like you're talking a lot about the "taste" that Ira Glass talks about in his creative people video.  He talks about how people have good "taste" and that when they first start out, the stuff they do doesn't match up with their good taste, because their music is...well, bad.  And it can cause people to be discouraged (it has done this to me for sure).

But it sounds like you're maybe talking about those who DON'T have taste and can't discern whether their junk is good or not or what clashing notes are or what real creativity is.  I agree that the breadth of software and tools available make anyone look decent on their first try.

All in all though, I disagree with your first statement especially.  I was driving home listening to music today and thinking about how many great artists there are out there that are just churning out GOOD music all the time. A few I listened to on the way home today: Jason Ross, Wrechiski, Andrew Bayer, Skrillex, Kygo, Cubicolor, Skrux...those guys are awesome in my opinion and the stuff they make is worth listening to.

So yes, beginners suck, and it sucks when they put their junk songs out for people to comment on when they really need to look at it more critically themselves before bringing it to the public.  This is why most of my stuff doesn't go on the internet...no need.  I know it's not there yet.  But when it is, I'll be ready and it will be received better as my "first" song, rather than my 20th that I've posted on the forum.

I hear what you're saying Zau, and understand your sentiment.  It seems like you're talking a lot about the "taste" that Ira Glass talks about in his creative people video.  He talks about how people have good "taste" and that when they first start out, the stuff they do doesn't match up with their good taste, because their music is...well, bad.  And it can cause people to be discouraged (it has done this to me for sure).

Nope, I'm not talking about 'taste' at all. Taste is an entirely different thing. I'm not even talking about 'good' or 'bad' music, or being creative.

I'm talking about being able to hear basic things, like clashing notes. I don't recall ever hearing clashing notes in any of Andrew Bayer or Skrillex's songs, ever. Or a major and minor key center played simultaneously. Basic, fundamental skills.

First off, read the post again, thoroughly.

I agree that ear training is important and everything but you can't just go tell everyone "hey stop what you're doing because you have shitty ears" Developing your ears is a long process that takes years of critical listening.

Actually what I said was, "hey stop what you're doing because you have shitty ears, so go and work on some ear training". You left out the most important part of what I was saying. I said that if you don't have good ears, you should be working on them, training your ears to be able to really 'hear' what exactly is happening in the music. Because one thing for the most part that I've noticed is that a lot of people tend to be caught up trying to master mixing and all that stuff, when in reality they can't even really hear the music they're making. Their priorities are at the wrong places. You can still work on other things simultaneously but ear training should be your priority if your ears are shitty.

Can you honestly say that you were born being able to hear harmonies, melodies, arpeggios, reverb, delay, compression, balance, stereo and all that right from the get go?

I mean I did mention several times, I called it Ear TRAINING. Not magically having these skills when you are born, or when I was born, or whatever. I never even remotely implied that.

It sounds to me like you're upset because of how little it takes with technology for someone to call themselves a producer

Nope again, not at all. Technology is doing a lot of great things for a lot of people, including myself. I'm not upset about that, but I do get upset when I hear people releasing music that tells me that the guy who produced it can't even hear that he has both major and minor key centers going off at the same time. You're a guitarist. You should know exactly what I'm talking about. 

It's because of the availability of music technology that people like Virtual Riot, Madeon, & Seven Lions were ever able to get as good as they are.

Madeon and Seven Lions are terrible examples of this because they actually learned how to play the piano/guitar, away from technology.

Maybe the reason why you never hear clashing notes in any of Andrew Bayers or Skrillex's music is because they've been doing this for at least a decade. -_-

Nope, actually the biggest reason why there aren't any clashing notes in Skrillex's music is because he started out playing the guitar (and drums), he was into rock music long and playing in bands before he got into electronic music. Skrillex has amazing ears, and you will know very early on if you're playing with 3 or 4 dudes and you are playing a clashing note, if you can't hear it yourself, I'm pretty sure the other dudes in the band will tell you.

(Although I would prefer dissonance as a substitute)

To me, dissonance can imply something that is pleasing to the ear. For example, a minor 9th interval (again, I'm sure you know what that is). I hear minor 9ths a lot in 20th century classical music, and it sounds cool. I also hear it in big band horn arrangements, but they only occur for very brief intervals, like 1/16th notes and 1/32nd notes. But when I hear a minor 9th interval in the context of electronic music and used in a sustained chord over the span of 4 measures, then that just sounds awful and 'clashing'.

Again, read the post thoroughly.

I mean of course if you don't have good ears you should be working on them. The only thing that bugs me is that this post comes across as elitist as hell.

"I don't really check out music posted by other people especially when they put a disclaimer saying that they are beginners without any music theory, who have made less than 10/20/30/50 tracks or God forbid, less than 5 tracks. But every time I do, it's a horror show."

Seriously dude... I get what you're saying but vinceasot pretty much summed it up.

Quote from: vinceasot on February 27, 2016, 01:51:16 am

there are beginners out there who are just starting out

I understand what you're when you mention that some people can't hear major or minor key centers. Hell some people don't even know what a key center is. Should that really stop them from making music though even if it's bad? We all have to start somewhere and beginners are often unconscious of their own incompetence. I don't think that's anything to be upset about.

Yes all those artists that I mentioned can play piano and guitar away from technology. That's not really the point I'm trying to make though. Take me for example. I can play guitar and yet the stuff i'm working on is mediocre at best from a production standpoint. There's a separation between being a great producer and a great instrumentalist. Without technology we would have less of those great producers. Is it that you just get frustrated when you hear producers who think that the problem with their music is the mix when really it's the notes?

Yeah skrillex is great and all. I actually knew from first to last before I learned skrillex. Then in 7th grade skrillex became big and I found out it was the from first to last vocalist and was pretty impressed. Thought dubstep was garbage at the time though.

To summarize it up sometimes beginners are simply unconscious of their own incompetence and that's why they write music that is bad from a musical standpoint. You can help change that by not getting frustrated about it and actually offering them some feedback instead of being all elitist about it...

You still don't get it.

I love you zau

Wait. So does that mean that this song contributes to the "sad state" of music because it monophonic, drop based, and lacks a consonant melody?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X6qF7sF9eo

I don't think that this song is any less or more art than listening to a bach concerto. It's still music... just different. Musical complexity isn't what brings the art to music.

Besides... It's not like that track was made by big names or anything...

Wait. So does that mean that this song contributes to the "sad state" of music because it monophonic, drop based, and lacks a consonant melody?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X6qF7sF9eo

I don't think that this song is any less or more art than listening to a bach concerto. It's still music... just different. Musical complexity isn't what brings the art to music.

Besides... It's not like that track was made by big names or anything...

You got me wrong there. I'm not saying songs like that are somehow less art than others. It's even more dificult to make track simple, but great. All I'm saying is, that by their nature they appear easier to achieve for starting guys. They are wrong and they're gonna find it out, but untill they do, forums like this recieve fair share of not that great tracks in similar style.