Author Topic: The most important thing (rant) (Read 51382 times)

Lydian · « **Reply #30 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:39:52 am »

Quote from: fxbip on February 28, 2016, 06:31:35 am

All of this is very subjective.
Minor 9th are awesome i use them all the time on pads,extremely tense and dark.When in phrygian mode the tonic +minor 9th gives you insane chords.
Why you lose your time ranting about things like: there is some people making bad music man?hahaha of course there is some people making bad music and there will always be,you gotta start somewhere!
And for some people music is just a fun amateur thing they do in their free time and they dont have an ambition to become the next producer prodigy!
Be more positive and talk about the music you DO like instead of the one you dislike.You will be much happier.Just a friendly advice.

I love you fxbip

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #31 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:42:21 am »

Quote from: Lydian on February 28, 2016, 06:22:56 am

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 28, 2016, 05:09:08 am
You have some truth to this, but i've mentioned this point to Lydian and it's basically the mindset that comes along with that low barrier and underestimated skill involved.

I think that's really the heart of Zau's message here...is he makes his friggin living off of this sort of thing, and to have people some what piss on his trials and tribulations and make light of it in a ten min youtube tutorial or ask for feedback with out proper practice and discipline? it's really insulting and brings down the entire average level of the art.

Please Senpai... does there really have to be any sort of "requirement" to ask for feedback? I've never felt insulted by anyone who has asked for feedback. I could give less shits whether they're on their 1st track or their 100th track.

If I listen to a track and think that it's lacking in the harmonies and melodies then I'll tell them. If I hear that their track is off key or contains to many clashing notes to the point that it's obvious I point them to some basic music theory.

There's no need to be all "sad state of music" about it which is what bugs me about this thread in the first place... If Zau wants to create imaginary "feedback requirements" then let that be his code.

Preventative maintenance can answer many questions just by understanding, seeking knowledge and doing work. This term comes to mind, it may be used out of context but it seems to fit.

There's also an element of time involved when dealing with other people and doing things, and it's a finite resource whether you want to believe that or not.

So, basically it's unmasking a potential wannabee who doesn't want to put in time and think "OH I FOUND A SHORT CUT LEL", chances are that so called short cut just isn't a substitute for understanding the application.

If you really want to be good, you'll develop these guards and you can eventually be extremely productive once you've assessed the person and the level of understanding.

Zau shouldn't have to teach some one how to walk when they're expecting to run a marathon...

And like i've said before, i understand the process of gathering information and people have different ways of doing it, there's just more efficient means if you'd just pay attention to the smaller things before you even consider doing this line of work. Those small things also include prerequisites to music application and appreciation. Right now, it seems like most beginners are just running more on appreciation. And it might be a good suggestion to get some learning! You know, the hard stuff lol.

ion · « **Reply #32 on:** February 28, 2016, 08:40:52 am »

Quote from: Lydian on February 28, 2016, 06:07:48 am

I don't really agree with EDM barriers being low. The amount of effort that it takes to produce EDM at a professional level is much higher than the other genres from my personal experience.

You have just as many people with bad ears writing EDM as you do writing pop, rock, and jazz. We just don't see much of the others here because this is primarily a dance music forum.

Eh, no way!
Most people who write pop, rock, or jazz can play an instrument. That is more than 85% of all so called "edm producers". I call BS

Lydian · « **Reply #33 on:** February 28, 2016, 08:46:47 am »

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Preventative maintenance can answer many questions just by understanding, seeking knowledge and doing work. This term comes to mind, it may be used out of context but it seems to fit.

Please Senpai I don't understand. xD Too much science. We're talking tits here.

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There's also an element of time involved when dealing with other people and doing things, and it's a finite resource whether you want to believe that or not.

Kinda like when I post a question or thread and have to wait for someone to reply until moving forward. D:

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So, basically it's unmasking a potential wannabee who doesn't want to put in time and think "OH I FOUND A SHORT CUT LEL", chances are that so called short cut just isn't a substitute for understanding the application.

So basically I get lazy and post my threads looking for shortcuts when really I should just stop making excuses for myself and write garbage. xD

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If you really want to be good, you'll develop these guards and you can eventually be extremely productive once you've assessed the person and the level of understanding.

Teach me more about these guards Senpai.

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Zau shouldn't have to teach some one how to walk when they're expecting to run a marathon...

Zau should teach us n00bs his uber l33t production/mixing/perfectpitch/composition top secret superstar DJ of the chosen ones production skills tho. Cause we all know he loves beginners!

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And like i've said before, i understand the process of gathering information and people have different ways of doing it, there's just more efficient means if you'd just pay attention to the smaller things before you even consider doing this line of work.

I like to use google.

Google doesn't always have everything tho so sometimes trial and error is the only option.

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Those small things also include prerequisites to music application and appreciation. Right now, it seems like most beginners are just running more on appreciation. And it might be a good suggestion to get some learning! You know, the hard stuff lol.

Wise choice of words senpai. <3

Lydian · « **Reply #34 on:** February 28, 2016, 09:04:51 am »

Quote from: ion on February 28, 2016, 08:40:52 am

Eh, no way!
Most people who write pop, rock, or jazz can play an instrument. That is more than 85% of all so called "edm producers". I call BS

Playing an instrument doesn't give you a good ear. I have a friend who has been playing guitar for 4 years and can't play in key for ass. ^.^

Playing an instrument also doesn't teach you sound design. It doesn't teach you arrangement. It doesn't teach you theory. It doesn't teach you mixing. It doesn't teach you composition. It doesn't even teach you ear training. UNLESS... you learn music by ear.

Have you ever taken away sheet music from band students or piano players and asked them to learn a song by ear? Hardly anyone in my high school could learn stuff by ear aside from a few musicians who were actually decent. We're talking kids who have been playing music since grade school. 5-8 years of music and they still can't learn stuff by ear or play music without relying on their sheets.

I maintain my stance. I play drums, guitar, bass, and piano and out of all these producing EDM is SUBSTANTIALLY harder and contains the same amount of beginners with bad ears as any other genre.

(especially metal. My god you don't understand how many requests I get for tabs on my youtube channel even 4 years after I made those videos"

ion · « **Reply #35 on:** February 28, 2016, 11:33:18 am »

You are almost convincing me to change my stance Lydian, but only almost. A lot of good points, but still lacking a little when it comes to explaining how practicing an instrument does or does not train your ear. I think it does.

Bertie South · « **Reply #36 on:** February 28, 2016, 01:47:13 pm »

Quote from: ZAU on February 27, 2016, 01:34:05 am

The reason why I'm ranting is because it's such a weird time for music/musicians/producers/engineers. No other profession in the world go through what we go through. Take a doctor, for example. You can't put on a white lab coat and stethoscope and walk into a hospital and say, 'Hey everybody! I'm a doctor' and off you go into the surgery room. But this is what is happening in the music industry. Anybody with a computer can download their DAW of choice without having any musical knowledge whatsoever and 'make a track'. How is this fair? Well, it's not, and I'm kind of over it.

Ok. So you're ranting because this situation is 'unfair'. How is it harming you? Can you name a specific person who is cheating the system?

ZAU · « **Reply #37 on:** February 28, 2016, 02:10:44 pm »

Quote from: Bertie South on February 28, 2016, 01:47:13 pm

So you're ranting because this situation is 'unfair'. How is it harming you? Can you name a specific person who is cheating the system?

Before I answer your questions, I'd like to know.. do you do music professionally? Do you make a living off of it?

Bertie South · « **Reply #38 on:** February 28, 2016, 03:00:14 pm »

I do not.

Mussar · « **Reply #39 on:** February 28, 2016, 03:55:16 pm »

If you're worried about your integrity or your career as a musician being devalued because people don't know the same amount of stuff as you and are achieving similar results, then clearly they figured out something you hadn't, and you're probably not paying enough attention to the music industry.

Armin Van Buuren uses ghost producers, I probably know almost as much about how FM synthesis works as Skrillex, and I'm not even moving outside of dance music with those examples. Do we wanna start talking about Bieber?

Ear training is incredibly important, and I'm 100% with you on recommending that everyone learn it. I agree that everyone should learn it, because it's an invaluable skill and makes your life so much easier. But trying to make this into "If you're not making money off of music you can't understand what it's like to have people also making money off music that DIDN'T WORK AS HARD AS ME!!!!!" just comes off bad.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #40 on:** February 28, 2016, 05:55:20 pm »

Quote from: ion on February 28, 2016, 11:33:18 am

You are almost convincing me to change my stance Lydian, but only almost. A lot of good points, but still lacking a little when it comes to explaining how practicing an instrument does or does not train your ear. I think it does.

the difference is explained in one of my posts above: it's how you are actually practicing that makes the difference.

You can hear these things, but if you aren't listening to the things then you won't be able to internalize the concept that is a requirement of perfect pitch or really any communicative interaction.

It's true that you may be able to develop a basic understanding of what sounds good, but depending on how deeply you want to take that understanding is kicker...

My goal personally is to be as proficient as a PHD, at the very least a bachelor's.

There's concepts that eluding and hard to get if you've never actually had a good coach or a teacher, it also depends on age, and with that age the maturity to see beyond the worth of things that are of face value.

"All Buddhism makes a distinction between wisdom and knowledge. In his book What the Buddha Taught, the Buddhist scholar Walpola Rahula wrote,"

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"According to Buddhism there are two sorts of understanding: What we generally call understanding is knowledge, an accumulated memory, an intellectual grasping of a subject according to certain given data. This is called 'knowing accordingly' (anubodhd). It is not very keep. Real deep understanding is called 'penetration' (pativedha), seeing a thing in its true nature, without name and label. This penetration is possible only when the mind is free from all impurities and is fully developed through meditation."

SOURCE

It's tough to create a house when you don't have a foundation to stand on, or know how to create a stable foundation. This statement goes beyond music...

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #41 on:** February 28, 2016, 06:00:05 pm »

Quote from: Mussar on February 28, 2016, 03:55:16 pm

If you're worried about your integrity or your career as a musician being devalued because people don't know the same amount of stuff as you and are achieving similar results, then clearly they figured out something you hadn't, and you're probably not paying enough attention to the music industry.

Armin Van Buuren uses ghost producers, I probably know almost as much about how FM synthesis works as Skrillex, and I'm not even moving outside of dance music with those examples. Do we wanna start talking about Bieber?

Ear training is incredibly important, and I'm 100% with you on recommending that everyone learn it. I agree that everyone should learn it, because it's an invaluable skill and makes your life so much easier. But trying to make this into "If you're not making money off of music you can't understand what it's like to have people also making money off music that DIDN'T WORK AS HARD AS ME!!!!!" just comes off bad.

no but the professional does and has to learn it. some one has to have that skill regardless of money, other wise the big macho man DJ broham wouldn't hire ghost producer X because he/she can't recognize pitch. I don't think zau would of taken it in that direction any way. Don't stray away from the importance of understanding, because these little things will eventually be what makes or breaks you as the EDM industry becomes more competitive.

Mussar · « **Reply #42 on:** February 28, 2016, 09:14:15 pm »

I'm not arguing against understanding - I'm arguing against promoting the idea that the music industry (which includes EDM) is in any way "fair". Zau brought up how "anyone with a computer can download a DAW and 'make a track'" and how they don't think it's fair. I don't want people to expect a fair shake when it comes to being successful, because that's setting them up for failure.

Success is as much about the opportunities you are given (by privileged circumstances or by creating them yourself) as it is the skills and experience you have to help you achieve your goal. Sometimes it's actually more important. If you spend too much of your time worrying about how people who aren't as good as you (which is entirely subjective) are doing as well as/better than you, or in some way cheating the system/devaluing your craft, you'll get jaded and cynical and burn yourself out - leading to giant rants like this that probably make it harder for the person going through it to continue following their passions. Not speaking for Zau in any way, but it would be completely understandable to feel deflated after thinking about this sorta stuff.

In my opinion, it's better to focus on trying to find your niche, and just think about how you can make it as an artist without caring what other musicians do. Again, ear training is going to be super useful and prioritizing it will make your life so much easier in the long run so the original point Zau was making I'm on board with, but I can tell you from experience you don't need it to DJ for a bunch of intoxicated people, and there are genres/tracks that won't care too much about musicality at all. Fans don't care as much about that stuff, and we can't forget that while we spend so much time surrounded by other people who care just as much as we do. Most of them won't even notice.

Lydian · « **Reply #43 on:** February 28, 2016, 09:21:45 pm »

Quote from: ion on February 28, 2016, 11:33:18 am

You are almost convincing me to change my stance Lydian, but only almost. A lot of good points, but still lacking a little when it comes to explaining how practicing an instrument does or does not train your ear. I think it does.

In that case I will most likely not be the one to persuade you. I can only speak from my own experience as a multi-instrumentalist. I consider my ears to be my greatest strength. I would not however attribute that strength to playing instruments. When I first started playing guitar (12 years old) my ears were absolute garbage. Unlike Zau, I was not born with any type of perfect pitch. What I did realize though was that only being able to play music if I had the tabs for it became HIGHLY limiting. Not only were the tabs on ultimate guitar often incorrect but they weren't always available either.

Therefore I made a conscious decision to stop using them very early on in my playing. I downloaded transcription software to slow songs down sometimes as slow as 25% to be able to learn the notes by ear. I had no real concept of music theory and didn't even know how to subdivide notes or count beats. I had to force myself to learn music by ear, improvise over backing tracks, transcribe music in Sibelius, and only then was I able to develop my ears.

Then came in music theory which essentially skyrocketed my ears to levels I could never imagine. Suddenly I was able to perceive music in scales, arpeggios, melodies, harmonies, chord progressions, modes, intervals, keys, tonal centers, and subdivisions. Learning music theory enabled me to hear music in patterns, numbers, and terms.

Which is why this...

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No amount of music theory is going to help you in the first place if you can't HEAR what you're doing.

annoys the hell out of me.

Someone like Zau who has perfect pitch would not be able to relate to beginners having shit ears in the first place because he was simply born with it.

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. Since you brought it up, the way I did it is that I was born with good ears...

FarleyCZ · « **Reply #44 on:** February 28, 2016, 09:58:37 pm »

I can't say I've been following the topic last few days, but Lydian has a point here. If the original point was that some people should just give up, because they lack "musical ability" at all (represented as "hearing what they're doing"), then I strongly disagree. I also had to learn everything from complete basics. "What's a note."-type basics. I'm not where I want to be yet and yes, gifted people get there much quicker, but that shouldn't stop people from trying. ...it should stop them from flooding forums too much, but it shouldn't stop them from pursuing the hobby.

Author Topic: The most important thing (rant) (Read 51382 times)

Lydian

Re: The most important thing (rant)

Marrow Machines

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ion

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Lydian

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Lydian

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ion

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Bertie South

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ZAU

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Bertie South

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Mussar

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Marrow Machines

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Marrow Machines

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Mussar

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Lydian

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FarleyCZ

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