Author Topic: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method? (Read 22008 times)

Lydian · « **on:** February 13, 2016, 09:16:37 am »

What is it that separates producers or instrumentalists from becoming more competent in a shorter amount of time than the other? It's not uncommon in music to see a pianist or guitarist who is incredibly competent and has only been practicing for a year or two in comparison to those who have been playing for decades to reach the same skill level. This same concept applies to producing music as well. Obviously dedication plays a big part in this formula. Someone who practices for 3 hours a day versus 1 hour a day will no doubt have an advantage. I want hear from you guys though regarding your opinions on what you think is the most efficient practice method when it comes to music production. Maybe a better question would be is there really such a thing as a superior practice method or does it vary from person to person? When did you improve the most throughout your production journey and how did you do it?

Is it more beneficial to practicing the different aspects of producing music separately or tackling them all at once? Let me elaborate a bit.

A piano practice session for a serious practitioner might look something like this.

1 hour - Technique
1 hour - Scales
1 hour - Chords
1 hour - Ear Training
1 hour - Music Theory
1 hour - Sight Reading
1 hour - Improvising
1 hour - Learning Songs

I would like to think that the same type of regimen can be applied to music production except using different categories. Do you guys think it's beneficial to practice things like mixing, sound design, or arranging SEPARATELY from the production process? Or is this a bit impractical considering that all these things are pretty much irrelevant unless you're able to combine them all at the same time to complete a finished track?

Finally, if it is beneficial to practice the different aspects of music production separately how would you divide your categories?

Bertie South · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2016, 12:13:59 pm »

My hunch is that you should lean towards breaking things down, at least at first anyway. In a way, learning is really just about increasing your ability to identify and distinguish between ever more intricate patterns. This process necessarily builds on itself, so you should start at the bottom where the patterns are as simple as possible (or at the level where they're just within your current understanding).

As for how to break down music production, you'd want to do it so that the patterns are broken down to a level you can start learning. So mixdowns are a kind of pattern, compression is a pattern within that, sidechain compression is a pattern within that, etc. You'd probably learn something useful by trying to break it down yourself - it would help you to understand all the elements that go into production and how they relate to each other. Would probably make a pretty interesting tree diagram actually.

This is something I read when I was interested in coding, but there's no reason why it can't also apply to music production tbh: 5 Tips for Power Learning

ZAU · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2016, 02:37:52 pm »

Yes, it's me again

And yes, here you are again, asking a question you indirectly have asked before. How do you get better quicker? How do you expedite the process?

You're comparing two different things. You can't really compare piano playing and production like that, they are two different things. Playing the piano is performance based, whereas production is not. What is the result of end result of piano playing practice? It is a high level of piano playing performance. You want to get good at production, what is the end result? A song. A track. Do you see where I'm going with this?

The answer is very simple. You want to get good at producing songs? Practice just that. Producing full songs. Produce a song and finish it. You have to look at it as a whole, because it is just that.. a single thing. You release a single song. It's interesting because you already answered your own question: "Or is this a bit impractical considering that all these things are pretty much irrelevant unless you're able to combine them all at the same time to complete a finished track?" Yes, you could practice single components, like mixing, sound design, blah blah blah. But you'll be doing all these things out of context. Don't you think it would be more beneficial to practice these things within the context of a song, which is what you're aiming to be good at anyway?Producing songs?

You asked for a "superior practice method". The best thing you can do for yourself is this.. make a track, finish it, put it away and move onto the next. You don't have to release it or upload it.. no one else has to hear it. Just keep it on your hard drive. Do this at least 100 times if you want to see results quickly. It's a proven method for rapid progress, which is what you're aiming for right? Your songs won't be great in the beginning, but you seem to not want to face this (for reasons I will never know) and therefore you're not finishing enough songs to make any real progress to begin with. And you wind up back at the beginning, repeating this over and over again. Failure can be a good thing. The more times you fail, the more you learn. The more you learn from your failures, the less you fail.

I really don't understand why you find it so hard to grasp the idea of finishing tracks. Don't over think it. Don't be afraid to suck in the beginning. Just go for it.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2016, 06:23:23 pm »

Zau said it best.

I will also agree that on your 100 completed song, you will start to see a difference.

I know around song 50, you'll be noticing some things but definitely by song 100 you'll be in a good spot.

If you're actually completing a song, you are doing all that you can to practice what you need.

Understand this; unless you are actually using all the components that you are aware of at any given time, then you haven't mastered your understanding of your daw and overall music production. That might be over kill, but that's still with in the scope of "being a master".

Then the master's problems become more complex and suited for a master to solve and then become a proficient master.

I know some people might not agree with me, but if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty (at least initially), you may need some studio upgrades.

I fought off buying studio monitors for the longest time, mostly because i just wanted to wait and see how far i can get. But I've spent some time oh my headphones and logitech speakers, before i realized the limitations that i was placing on myself when making music. Those limitations manifested into frustration and the only reason why I didn't make music for any stretch of time now, was because of those equipment flaws.

I wouldn't trade that experience though, because it made me more versatile and understand more about any of my tools. I got a ways to go if i want to master the science of understanding, but the feeling of understanding i think definitely is down pat.

It's an odd mix of things, but just keep making complete songs with what ever you have man, keep researching, and asking questions.

Lydian · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2016, 07:44:55 pm »

Quote from: Bertie South on February 13, 2016, 12:13:59 pm

My hunch is that you should lean towards breaking things down, at least at first anyway. In a way, learning is really just about increasing your ability to identify and distinguish between ever more intricate patterns. This process necessarily builds on itself, so you should start at the bottom where the patterns are as simple as possible (or at the level where they're just within your current understanding).

As for how to break down music production, you'd want to do it so that the patterns are broken down to a level you can start learning. So mixdowns are a kind of pattern, compression is a pattern within that, sidechain compression is a pattern within that, etc. You'd probably learn something useful by trying to break it down yourself - it would help you to understand all the elements that go into production and how they relate to each other. Would probably make a pretty interesting tree diagram actually.

This is something I read when I was interested in coding, but there's no reason why it can't also apply to music production tbh: 5 Tips for Power Learning

Interesting actually. So far you're the only person who has suggested that it might be more beneficial at first to practice things separately. I agree that certain guidelines in mix downs tend to form patterns. A lot of things like compression, reverb, and delay settings however don't really tend to follow a specific pattern with the exception of high passing the latter two to remove the mud below 200 hz.

I've always liked to break things down in mind maps as well. Maybe I'll do that sometime after work today and see if it leads me anywhere interesting.

Quote from: ZAU on February 13, 2016, 02:37:52 pm

Yes, it's me again And yes, here you are again, asking a question you indirectly have asked before. How do you get better quicker? How do you expedite the process?

You're comparing two different things. You can't really compare piano playing and production like that, they are two different things. Playing the piano is performance based, whereas production is not. What is the result of end result of piano playing practice? It is a high level of piano playing performance. You want to get good at production, what is the end result? A song. A track. Do you see where I'm going with this?

The answer is very simple. You want to get good at producing songs? Practice just that. Producing full songs. Produce a song and finish it. You have to look at it as a whole, because it is just that.. a single thing. You release a single song. It's interesting because you already answered your own question: "Or is this a bit impractical considering that all these things are pretty much irrelevant unless you're able to combine them all at the same time to complete a finished track?" Yes, you could practice single components, like mixing, sound design, blah blah blah. But you'll be doing all these things out of context. Don't you think it would be more beneficial to practice these things within the context of a song, which is what you're aiming to be good at anyway?Producing songs?

You asked for a "superior practice method". The best thing you can do for yourself is this.. make a track, finish it, put it away and move onto the next. You don't have to release it or upload it.. no one else has to hear it. Just keep it on your hard drive. Do this at least 100 times if you want to see results quickly. It's a proven method for rapid progress, which is what you're aiming for right? Your songs won't be great in the beginning, but you seem to not want to face this (for reasons I will never know) and therefore you're not finishing enough songs to make any real progress to begin with. And you wind up back at the beginning, repeating this over and over again. Failure can be a good thing. The more times you fail, the more you learn. The more you learn from your failures, the less you fail.

I really don't understand why you find it so hard to grasp the idea of finishing tracks. Don't over think it. Don't be afraid to suck in the beginning. Just go for it.

Zau, Zau Zau... It appears we meet again. And yes, here you are again, misinterpreting my questions as meaning the same as previous ones. It's funny because the specific part of my post that you quoted I wrote with you in mind. Tickles my balls but since you've been so kind to not be as painfully condescending in the past I'll acknowledge it.

While playing an instrument and producing music contain different end goals I use them as examples because there ARE similarities. In the same way that if an instrumentalist practices scales, chords, and music theory all day then they will become good at exactly that. Playing scales, chords, and music theory. Until they are able to utilize those things together at the same time in order to perform a piece of music they're aren't really valuable in and of themselves. The same logic applies to making music because you can study EQ all day, compose themes, and study sound design but unless you can mix them all together at once there nobody is really going to care. Both pursuits contain a specific end goal which requires the combination of various elements in order to be successful.

What I got out of your post was that finishing songs is the most efficient practice method which is a pretty reasonable hypothesis.

The question is though should we just disregard studying things individually because of this?

I'll disregard the rest of the fluff to prevent this thread from getting painfully off topic like the last. You know your stuff Zau.

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 13, 2016, 06:23:23 pm

Zau said it best.

I will also agree that on your 100 completed song, you will start to see a difference.

I know around song 50, you'll be noticing some things but definitely by song 100 you'll be in a good spot.

If you're actually completing a song, you are doing all that you can to practice what you need.

Understand this; unless you are actually using all the components that you are aware of at any given time, then you haven't mastered your understanding of your daw and overall music production. That might be over kill, but that's still with in the scope of "being a master".

Then the master's problems become more complex and suited for a master to solve and then become a proficient master.

I know some people might not agree with me, but if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty (at least initially), you may need some studio upgrades.

I fought off buying studio monitors for the longest time, mostly because i just wanted to wait and see how far i can get. But I've spent some time oh my headphones and logitech speakers, before i realized the limitations that i was placing on myself when making music. Those limitations manifested into frustration and the only reason why I didn't make music for any stretch of time now, was because of those equipment flaws.

I wouldn't trade that experience though, because it made me more versatile and understand more about any of my tools. I got a ways to go if i want to master the science of understanding, but the feeling of understanding i think definitely is down pat.

It's an odd mix of things, but just keep making complete songs with what ever you have man, keep researching, and asking questions.

Even if its true that finishing songs is all the practice someone needs can you honestly say that there are 0 times in which it's more beneficial to practice things separately in order to get better? I can put on a loop and have it repeat for 160 bars with a couple of FX and call it a finished song. I can do that 100 times and I'll become good at just that. Making music that sounds like garbage.

I agree that finishing songs sounds like a pretty easy no brainer practice method but when I'm producing things don't always go that smoothly. I'll be in the process of writing a track and then I'll try to mix something but it will sound like garbage. Then the question from there is... why does it sound like garbage? It's always THAT part that I tend to get stuck on when finishing songs. Ironically that's the final step it takes before one is able to make any real progress.

So with that being said I'm going to attempt to fine tune this and say this. The best way to practice producing music is by writing garbage music and then through trial and error discovering how to make is sound less garbage.

For example... here's a short remake that I did 2 days ago of a 4 bar section of a song.

https://soundcloud.com/dannystestaccount/lights-up-remake

Compared to the original mine sounds like garbage. Now the question is why? It's not the notes side that I get stuck on. The notes are the same. Its only the mix downs that I can't yet quite figure out and that's why I have such a problem with finishing songs. I won't continue until I can figure out what's wrong and sometimes I never do. (A response for you Zau)

For example... I have this theme down.

https://soundcloud.com/dannystestaccount/theme

I love the notes but when I try to produce it just sounds amateur. Therefore, I'm going to keep using trial and error until I figure out what it is about the mix that sounds off until I can get it to sound good.

Can't make it sound less garbage if I don't have garbage to begin with. ^.^

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2016, 08:26:47 pm »

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 07:44:55 pm

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 13, 2016, 06:23:23 pm
Zau said it best.

I will also agree that on your 100 completed song, you will start to see a difference.

I know around song 50, you'll be noticing some things but definitely by song 100 you'll be in a good spot.

If you're actually completing a song, you are doing all that you can to practice what you need.

Understand this; unless you are actually using all the components that you are aware of at any given time, then you haven't mastered your understanding of your daw and overall music production. That might be over kill, but that's still with in the scope of "being a master".

Then the master's problems become more complex and suited for a master to solve and then become a proficient master.

I know some people might not agree with me, but if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty (at least initially), you may need some studio upgrades.

I fought off buying studio monitors for the longest time, mostly because i just wanted to wait and see how far i can get. But I've spent some time oh my headphones and logitech speakers, before i realized the limitations that i was placing on myself when making music. Those limitations manifested into frustration and the only reason why I didn't make music for any stretch of time now, was because of those equipment flaws.

I wouldn't trade that experience though, because it made me more versatile and understand more about any of my tools. I got a ways to go if i want to master the science of understanding, but the feeling of understanding i think definitely is down pat.

It's an odd mix of things, but just keep making complete songs with what ever you have man, keep researching, and asking questions.

Even if its true that finishing songs is all the practice someone needs can you honestly say that there are 0 times in which it's more beneficial to practice things separately in order to get better? I can put on a loop and have it repeat for 160 bars with a couple of FX and call it a finished song. I can do that 100 times and I'll become good at just that. Making music that sounds like garbage.

I agree that finishing songs sounds like a pretty easy no brainer practice method but when I'm producing things don't always go that smoothly. I'll be in the process of writing a track and then I'll try to mix something but it will sound like garbage. Then the question from there is... why does it sound like garbage? It's always THAT part that I tend to get stuck on when finishing songs. Ironically that's the final step it takes before one is able to make any real progress.

So with that being said I'm going to attempt to fine tune this and say this. The best way to practice producing music is by writing garbage music and then through trial and error discovering how to make is sound less garbage.

For example... here's a short remake that I did 2 days ago of a 4 bar section of a song.

https://soundcloud.com/dannystestaccount/lights-up-remake

Compared to the original mine sounds like garbage. Now the question is why? It's not the notes side that I get stuck on. The notes are the same. Its only the mix downs that I can't yet quite figure out and that's why I have such a problem with finishing songs. I won't continue until I can figure out what's wrong and sometimes I never do. (A response for you Zau)

For example... I have this theme down.

https://soundcloud.com/dannystestaccount/theme

I love the notes but when I try to produce it just sounds amateur. Therefore, I'm going to keep using trial and error until I figure out what it is about the mix that sounds off until I can get it to sound good. Can't make it sound less garbage if I don't have garbage to begin with. ^.^

You have to understand what exactly you're comparing things to.

Are you in an environment that is designed for this activity? Do you have equipment that is designed for this activity? At what level is your environment and equipment design for this specialized purpose of producing? What are your input signals like? Do you understand the subtle differences in any one particular tool that you are using?

Those are rhetorical questions.

Honestly if you're spending time making the songs, who or what is to say that you should be dedicated to that sole purpose? Do you not realize that you could open up a brand new project or continue to stay in the same project and work on what ever the hell else you want to work on for that main project or something else?

You're not freed of yourself yet. You're not acknowledging the amount of FREEDOM you have to DO WHAT EVER YOU WANT TO DO when it comes to this particular art, or really any art. (with in reason and taste and other moral obligations or duties; we won't go there because i think it's understood).

There's really no way of scheduling this sort of thing, because you're not going to school for this. Honestly, if you wanna start banging out good mixes you go to school for this, or you trial and error it while forming relationships that help foster these skills.

I've said these things several times before, but the frustrating part of what zau sees is that, the questions being asked are of a similar nature and can be, and have been, expressed in a way that should suit you to find the answers, for your self, on your own.

You might have to actually dig deeper, because it seems to me you're on a plateau right now and can't seem to break out of it to continue onto the next level.

Look to what you need, you have to become your teacher and be the student.

Any one else can offer advice based upon their experience, but if you're not actually creating your own, then you will not understand any one else because you have no understanding of yourself.

Lydian · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2016, 09:23:22 pm »

If you must know the answer then the answer is no to the studio environment question. A yes to the equipment question. Rhetorical questions I know but I might as well include some rhetorical answers. I understand that I have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want when it comes to making music. I get that I can open up a brand new project instead of working on the same one. I also understand that if I keep this behavior up I will end up 100 unfinished tracks.

I understand that it's not mandatory to have any sort of schedule or routine and I can literally just sit there and play with reverb all day if I desired. I don't see why its necessary to go to school to schedule anything but considering my major isn't audio engineering I have no choice but to resort to trial and error and asking for help on forums.

I don't see how these questions are of a similar nature aside from the constant frustrated tone I get from the replies you guys are giving me.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2016, 10:30:45 pm »

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 09:23:22 pm

If you must know the answer then the answer is no to the studio environment question. A yes to the equipment question. Rhetorical questions I know but I might as well include some rhetorical answers. I understand that I have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want when it comes to making music. I get that I can open up a brand new project instead of working on the same one. I also understand that if I keep this behavior up I will end up 100 unfinished tracks.

I understand that it's not mandatory to have any sort of schedule or routine and I can literally just sit there and play with reverb all day if I desired. I don't see why its necessary to go to school to schedule anything but considering my major isn't audio engineering I have no choice but to resort to trial and error and asking for help on forums.

I don't see how these questions are of a similar nature aside from the constant frustrated tone I get from the replies you guys are giving me.

Body language is not in the form of text, i have trouble and often misinterpret things said through text.

These questions i ask are in place to get a better understanding of your problem, and to give solutions as to how to solve it.

The only frustrated"tone" you'd be perceiving would come from yourself, and not through text. Just stating observations, and trying to solve problems.

Back to the issue at hand. What i suggested was a way of learning what you'd be doing in a more efficient manner. Re-read it again if you have to, but the information is there to help eliminate variables for both you and I, that was the point.

Now that we both understand that you have to do it by trial and error, all you're left with is just by doing that. You could order some books about the different production stages and see to the more specific aspects that are associated with each stage.

THREAD.

That link has a book in particular that seems to inspired a forum member enough to post about it. I also mention a book that may cover a more "human" perspective rather than a technical one. Both go hand in hand when dealing with music and people involved in it.

What i mentioned wasn't just blatant "lol go do these things and like w/e bro". You have to do a hard analysis and spend the time necessary to be proficient at this. Simply put, it's like doing home work.

I get that this isn't your major, and you probably want to do it more often than what you're doing right now, but that's the opportunity cost by going to school that's not in the related field. Which is fine, but, what you're asking comes from what you're choosing to prioritize in your life right now.

Out side of my initial questions, which should be reconsidered in a more calm manner and not with anger glasses, Don't know what else to tell you that's already has been told and basically not looked at thoroughly by you.

Ps, don't feed the troll man. I have a habit of going full retard. And if you want any more help from any one, you gotta learn to look at things from many angles and try to pull out what people are actually saying. Because, and once again going back to my post before hand, people are their own thing and you have to understand yourself in order to relate to other people.

*edit* You also may need to look outside of music and apply techniques to music to get the desired results.
Use any thing and every thing if you're in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding, other wise....I have no advice on the opposite of that path.

*edit* I read your post aboutTHIS. I've gained more insight to your situation.
You've been doing music production for not that long dude...compared to your musical understanding. Those things are totally different even though they are compliments in a product.

so, you already know what to do when it comes to practicing an instrument, now apply that understanding to get better at producing.

Btw, i checked your sound clips and they sound pretty decent. You could just be over thinking this whole thing entirely. Just gotta put in the time and learn as you go man. Hard analysis of yourself and start working on those things you see that you're weak at. That's what i did, and that's what many people have done. Eventually they've sought through other people, but not with out finding a problem they can't fix or understand themselves.

Bertie South · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2016, 11:28:33 pm »

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 07:44:55 pm

Interesting actually. So far you're the only person who has suggested that it might be more beneficial at first to practice things separately. I agree that certain guidelines in mix downs tend to form patterns. A lot of things like compression, reverb, and delay settings however don't really tend to follow a specific pattern with the exception of high passing the latter two to remove the mud below 200 hz.

I guess patterns might not have been quite the right word. Perhaps 'mental models' would have been better. The point I wanted to make is that a large part of what your brain does is comparing and matching models of stimuli with your senses. When you learn something, you're essentially developing a better and more intricate model of it. That process is always iterative, and models progressively build on each other to make larger ones. That's why I advocate breaking things down - the model of 'a professional sounding production' is too complex to try and pick up as one thing. The simpler models that make it up like 'good sound design', 'logical structure' etc. are more realistic steps. You should try and find the level where you're sufficiently challenged - not so easy that you get bored and lose interest, not so difficult that you get frustrated and give up.

Lydian · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2016, 11:43:55 pm »

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 13, 2016, 10:30:45 pm

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 09:23:22 pm
If you must know the answer then the answer is no to the studio environment question. A yes to the equipment question. Rhetorical questions I know but I might as well include some rhetorical answers. I understand that I have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want when it comes to making music. I get that I can open up a brand new project instead of working on the same one. I also understand that if I keep this behavior up I will end up 100 unfinished tracks.

I understand that it's not mandatory to have any sort of schedule or routine and I can literally just sit there and play with reverb all day if I desired. I don't see why its necessary to go to school to schedule anything but considering my major isn't audio engineering I have no choice but to resort to trial and error and asking for help on forums.

I don't see how these questions are of a similar nature aside from the constant frustrated tone I get from the replies you guys are giving me.

Body language is not in the form of text, i have trouble and often misinterpret things said through text.

These questions i ask are in place to get a better understanding of your problem, and to give solutions as to how to solve it.

The only frustrated"tone" you'd be perceiving would come from yourself, and not through text. Just stating observations, and trying to solve problems.

Back to the issue at hand. What i suggested was a way of learning what you'd be doing in a more efficient manner. Re-read it again if you have to, but the information is there to help eliminate variables for both you and I, that was the point.

Now that we both understand that you have to do it by trial and error, all you're left with is just by doing that. You could order some books about the different production stages and see to the more specific aspects that are associated with each stage.

THREAD.

That link has a book in particular that seems to inspired a forum member enough to post about it. I also mention a book that may cover a more "human" perspective rather than a technical one. Both go hand in hand when dealing with music and people involved in it.

What i mentioned wasn't just blatant "lol go do these things and like w/e bro". You have to do a hard analysis and spend the time necessary to be proficient at this. Simply put, it's like doing home work.

I get that this isn't your major, and you probably want to do it more often than what you're doing right now, but that's the opportunity cost by going to school that's not in the related field. Which is fine, but, what you're asking comes from what you're choosing to prioritize in your life right now.

Out side of my initial questions, which should be reconsidered in a more calm manner and not with anger glasses, Don't know what else to tell you that's already has been told and basically not looked at thoroughly by you.

Ps, don't feed the troll man. I have a habit of going full retard. And if you want any more help from any one, you gotta learn to look at things from many angles and try to pull out what people are actually saying. Because, and once again going back to my post before hand, people are their own thing and you have to understand yourself in order to relate to other people.

*edit* You also may need to look outside of music and apply techniques to music to get the desired results.
Use any thing and every thing if you're in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding, other wise....I have no advice on the opposite of that path.

*edit* I read your post aboutTHIS. I've gained more insight to your situation.
You've been doing music production for not that long dude...compared to your musical understanding. Those things are totally different even though they are compliments in a product.

so, you already know what to do when it comes to practicing an instrument, now apply that understanding to get better at producing.

Btw, i checked your sound clips and they sound pretty decent. You could just be over thinking this whole thing entirely. Just gotta put in the time and learn as you go man. Hard analysis of yourself and start working on those things you see that you're weak at. That's what i did, and that's what many people have done. Eventually they've sought through other people, but not with out finding a problem they can't fix or understand themselves.

Bobby owinski has some pretty good books. I've read a few of them myself. The mixing engineers handbook was one of my entreeways to the field a year or two back. I appreciate your replies dude. Walls of text tend to take quite a bit of time. It just bothers me when I ask a question and people have to hijack it with (YOU'VE ALREADY ASKED THIS QUESTION) and suddenly the entire subject of the post becomes about me. >.<

If you thought my clips sound decent then I appreciate it. Still got a long way to go. Some things you really can't be taught by others but only through your own experience like you mentioned a bit earlier. (Or something similar to it.) I'll continue my trial and error and see what practice method works best for me. Until then I'm still interested in the thoughts of others who might have something to add.

Quote from: Bertie South on February 13, 2016, 11:28:33 pm

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 07:44:55 pm

Interesting actually. So far you're the only person who has suggested that it might be more beneficial at first to practice things separately. I agree that certain guidelines in mix downs tend to form patterns. A lot of things like compression, reverb, and delay settings however don't really tend to follow a specific pattern with the exception of high passing the latter two to remove the mud below 200 hz.

I guess patterns might not have been quite the right word. Perhaps 'mental models' would have been better. The point I wanted to make is that a large part of what your brain does is comparing and matching models of stimuli with your senses. When you learn something, you're essentially developing a better and more intricate model of it. That process is always iterative, and models progressively build on each other to make larger ones. That's why I advocate breaking things down - the model of 'a professional sounding production' is too complex to try and pick up as one thing. The simpler models that make it up like 'good sound design', 'logical structure' etc. are more realistic steps. You should try and find the level where you're sufficiently challenged - not so easy that you get bored and lose interest, not so difficult that you get frustrated and give up.

Dont' worry about it I agree completely. I tend to work with "mental models" a lot easier than other things. When I learn about anything I like to break it down into categories and dissect each element like a frog in a science class. I believe there was a word for the type of learning you speak of. I forgot what it was though. Something along the lines of the way that we learn is by associating it with past knowledge and then finding a way to combine the two to form a much more complex model.

I also remember reading that the best way to get into flow is to find that sweet spot between too boring and too challenging. I feel like that element of "flow" is highly important when it comes to learning music faster as well. The guys from the flow genome project once said something along the lines of we learn MUCH MUCH faster in a flow state but to maintain the state we need to continue to find that balance between too boring and too challenging.

Thanks for your thoughts.

ZAU · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2016, 12:18:22 am »

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 07:44:55 pm

Its only the mix downs that I can't yet quite figure out and that's why I have such a problem with finishing songs.

Ok, so you've pinpointed the problem to being a mixing one, great. So I would suggest to just practice mixing, a lot. Go this site http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm and download some multi tracks and mix them. So there you go, you're working on what you think is your weakness.

If you find yourself still struggling after all the book reading and video tutorial watching, then that's when I would move onto some real one-to-one help from a real professional. Maybe you need a real teacher to break all of it down directly to you. I've heard that some people have gotten serious results from getting lessons directly from Mr. Bill and SeamlessR. If you can get some money together, maybe you can schedule in a lesson with people like them. I think Sadowick offers Skype lessons as well. They would be able to tell you directly what you need to work and how to go about doing that, since you don't seem to be able to pinpoint the problem yourself. Sure, it will cost you money, but so does a lot of things in life.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2016, 12:58:33 am »

Quote from: ZAU on February 14, 2016, 12:18:22 am

If you find yourself still struggling after all the book reading and video tutorial watching, then that's when I would move onto some real one-to-one help from a real professional. Maybe you need a real teacher to break all of it down directly to you. I've heard that some people have gotten serious results from getting lessons directly from Mr. Bill and SeamlessR. If you can get some money together, maybe you can schedule in a lesson with people like them. I think Sadowick offers Skype lessons as well. They would be able to tell you directly what you need to work and how to go about doing that, since you don't seem to be able to pinpoint the problem yourself. Sure, it will cost you money, but so does a lot of things in life.

I was lucky enough to have several friends who were interested, and have gone to school for this sort of thing. I've also taken a very basic class in school to make sure my foundation was solid enough. It wasn't a mixing class, but it focused more on the precursor elements to mixing.

My next step is to probably shell out some coin for 1 on 1 time, but that'll happen after my mechanical engineering degree lol.

ZAU · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2016, 02:13:03 am »

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 14, 2016, 12:58:33 am

I was lucky enough to have several friends who were interested, and have gone to school for this sort of thing. I've also taken a very basic class in school to make sure my foundation was solid enough. It wasn't a mixing class, but it focused more on the precursor elements to mixing.

Sure, I think everyone learns differently, I mean that's pretty obvious by now. Some people are hands on, some are not. Other people need teachers. I've learned a ton of things on my own but I also do like teachers a lot. They have the ability to pinpoint where stuff is going wrong and they can tell you exactly how to work on it.. kind of like a doctor who prescribes medication. I would love to take a lesson or two with Mr. Bill or SeamlessR and I will once I have the extra funds, I think they're really good teachers with a lot experience and know-how. I think Seamless charges $90 an hour which is very reasonable.

Looking back on all these threads from Lydian, this one included, I can say that we have made pretty good progress. From not knowing exactly how to improve, to pinpointing mixing as the problem. I see this as something very positive.

Marrow Machines · « **Reply #13 on:** February 14, 2016, 02:37:23 am »

Quote from: ZAU on February 14, 2016, 02:13:03 am

Quote from: Marrow Machines on February 14, 2016, 12:58:33 am
I was lucky enough to have several friends who were interested, and have gone to school for this sort of thing. I've also taken a very basic class in school to make sure my foundation was solid enough. It wasn't a mixing class, but it focused more on the precursor elements to mixing.

Sure, I think everyone learns differently, I mean that's pretty obvious by now. Some people are hands on, some are not. Other people need teachers. I've learned a ton of things on my own but I also do like teachers a lot. They have the ability to pinpoint where stuff is going wrong and they can tell you exactly how to work on it.. kind of like a doctor who prescribes medication. I would love to take a lesson or two with Mr. Bill or SeamlessR and I will once I have the extra funds, I think they're really good teachers with a lot experience and know-how. I think Seamless charges $90 an hour which is very reasonable.

Looking back on all these threads from Lydian, this one included, I can say that we have made pretty good progress. From not knowing exactly how to improve, to pinpointing mixing as the problem. I see this as something very positive.

#problemsolving #engineering101

Word up.

Nadav · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2016, 03:44:04 am »

I'm going to answer based on my instrumentalist/vocalist journey instead, since I'm over a quarter-century into that one and it's been rather serious at times, while my production journey is only a couple years old and it's always been a very part-time, low-priority hobby. Hopefully some part of my answer will be useful to you anyway.

Quote from: Lydian on February 13, 2016, 09:16:37 am

What is it that separates producers or instrumentalists from becoming more competent in a shorter amount of time than the other? It's not uncommon in music to see a pianist or guitarist who is incredibly competent and has only been practicing for a year or two in comparison to those who have been playing for decades to reach the same skill level. This same concept applies to producing music as well. Obviously dedication plays a big part in this formula. Someone who practices for 3 hours a day versus 1 hour a day will no doubt have an advantage.

Don't forget about talent.

(Unfortunately, I've seen several people on this forum claim that talent doesn't exist. This is untrue by just about any reasonable definition of the word "talent". I hope the numerous people I've seen making this claim are not representative of the whole community and that such erroneous mythology isn't widespread; encouraging people to not give up should not require belief in absurd falsehoods.)

A more-talented person will not need to practice as much or as hard as a less-talented person to get the same results. This doesn't mean a more-talented person doesn't need to practice, obviously. You might have met people who are extremely talented at one thing or another but don't ever practice, and so within a few years they find themselves outpaced by their less-talented but harder-working peers. Then, not used to not being the best, they get discouraged and quit.

Quote

Maybe a better question would be is there really such a thing as a superior practice method or does it vary from person to person?

It's probably a bell curve, where most people benefit about the same amount from the same practice methods, with a few oddballs out at the extremes who benefit more from really unconventional practice methods. In most cases, what makes those oddballs oddballs is their unusually high or low amounts of talent, but it could be other things too.

As for what practice method is "superior", there are competing schools of thought. If you go to a music educator's conference you'll find talk after talk on whether this method or that method is better. Of course, there are definitely things you can do that are always going to be bad (practicing bad habits, etc.).

Quote

When did you improve the most throughout your production journey and how did you do it?

I improved the most when I started hanging out and playing with musicians who were way better than me.

A second "mini-boom" came after I had taken a 3-4 year hiatus from creating music altogether in my mid-20s. Fresh ears, fresh hands, maybe? But it couldn't have happened without the preceding 2 decades of building up chops.

Author Topic: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method? (Read 22008 times)

Lydian

What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Bertie South

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

ZAU

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Marrow Machines

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Lydian

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Marrow Machines

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Lydian

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Marrow Machines

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Bertie South

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Lydian

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

ZAU

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Marrow Machines

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

ZAU

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Marrow Machines

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?

Nadav

Re: What's The Most Efficient Practice Method?