Author Topic: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth  (Read 13427 times)

FarleyCZ

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Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« on: January 31, 2016, 04:18:47 pm »
(Caution, really nerdy topic comming...)

Ok few days back I was struggling with few mixdowns. It's like a circle, it always comes to part when I like the sound on it's own, but it's muddy in comparison with profi stuff. So I usually go back and cut more and more low midrange from different elements until it's a bit comparable.

...but recently, I was listening to some really old music and noticed pretty similar muddy sound. Such old recordings are often used as a proof of oldschool analogue mixing being superior to digital as it sounds less "digital" and more "warm". So the theory is: Isn't this difference caused just by different "styles" of mixing? Isn't this just a biproduct of today's loudness war forcing us to make low mids weaker and stuff over 2k louder?

Now you probably say: "Dude doesn't know what he's talking about. There's way more to analogue warmth than frequency response." And you're right, but is there really such a magical difference? If you AB straight digital and analog, you find combination of three differences. Effects you might say. Saturation, pitch inconsistency and altered frequency response. But more pricey the studio equipment was back then, less of these problems were there anyway . Also apply any tape-sim on a track and make a dip in low mids. Yup, you get some new harmonics making highend a bit richer, but you probably wouln't call it "warm" anymore.

How much you guys "praise" analog wamness? Isn't it possible that some of it might have been caused just by a mixing style back then?
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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 05:40:57 pm »
yes the difference is different styles of mixing. The importance of a rock and roll track is more based on the snare and vocals than any thing else. Then you'd swap out what was important.

Plus with analogue, and in this case vinyl, you have physical limitations.

I still take the philosophy of trying to "hit the ear just right" in terms of frequency range. I mix/master to that idea so, any thing that's outside of your range of hearing, i'll cut out. and when it comes close to that frequency threshold, that's usually where i tend to end my cut offs.

So then the focus is more on that range with out any fluff. Probably a common technique, but i hear more people boosting than cutting. And that shit just hurts my ears. Ice pick in the ear drum, comes to mind.

I also think that warmth comes from a high end roll off. That just reminds me of a low mid to mid high range.
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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2016, 07:33:01 pm »
I like the topic! I've thought about this some myself.

I wonder if the difference is also in the relationship between the actual mechanism (e.g. a preamp) and the gauge that gives you information about the state of the system (e.g. a VU meter). If you mix with the goal of getting the same readouts on the meters (e.g. spectrum analyzer), you'll get a different sounding result on analog vs. digital equipment.

I guess that's why so many sound engineers make sure to do at least one mix "blind"?

Of course you can't rule out the placebo/confirmation bias effect. Knowing that something is "analog"--i.e. being "primed" for analog--your brain will tell your ear to hear in a different way.

Makes me wonder whether there's been studies looking into this effect.

Schematic

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2016, 12:44:54 am »
I think the concept of anlaogue warmth (or analogue being 'better') when it comes to the storage medium as absolute nonsense.

Have a listen to some vinyls, I mean REALLY listen to them... it's usually pretty shit if you're being honest with yourself. It's a very limited format, with a ton of noise. Tape too. The part that we perceive as sounding better comes down to how tracks were prepared for the limitations of those formats; quieter and with dynamics, careful stereo imaging, etc.

But say you record a vinyl to digital, it doesn't suddenly lose anything because it's now a digital format, it's exactly as it was on the vinyl (noise and all). And on the same token, that vinyl-rip is not going to sound 'better' than if you took the same track that was PREPARED for vinyl (again using that careful stereo imaging and using dyanmics) and just went straight to a digital storage medium, it will likely sound a lot worse.

The problem with digital is that you can get away with murder, and people did indeed start murdering their tracks in the loudness wars. The result: thin, distorted, lifeless music, when it could just as easily have been vibrant and crystal-clear on the exact same format.

Now with all of that said, where I believe analogue DOES still have a leg up is processing. Not necessarily because all analogue gear gives that 'warmth' in the low mids (although indeed some units do exactly that, if that's what you're going for), but because you can also get this kind of smooth transparency from many analogue EQs and compressors that is difficult to match with digital processors. Large changes still sound natural and musical rather than forced and phasey or harsh, as though it had always been that way and no processing ever took place. Of course I'm also talking about QUALITY analogue equipment here, there's plenty of cheap analogue gear that will sound just as garbage as any bottom-of-the-barrel digital plugin.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 12:47:50 am by Schematic »
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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2016, 06:49:02 am »
Most of that analogue 'magic' comes from the original circuitry. The subtle little nuances of tubes and transistors, minute alterations from imperfect voltage signals, and the general difference of a coloured analogue signal path over pristine digital, is what creates that fabled warmth.

There are strong arguments from those who work with analogue that digital computation will never quite replace those tiny details that make analogue signals, and to a point, they're probably right. Computers, however, have come ahead in leaps and bounds in just two decades, and we will eventually reach a day where digital processing and computation renders the old format completely redundant.

That there, though, is another strong aspect of analogue sound: the rose-tint. It's no secret that if somebody grew up surrounded by the hum of hardware studios and tape reels, they're not going to catch on to digital sound as fondly as others. There are numerous blind tests out there to show that, even if only the slightest bit off their hardware counterparts, software IS almost a perfect replica, and near-indistinguishable in difference. Yet, there will always be those few who rocked the Oberheim or Prophets in the 80's that swear by the original thing, even if it's getting matched.

I think it comes down to individual perspective. I personally think we are a little way off perfecting analogue signal in the digital realm, but the freedom digital offers trumps most to all of what analogue gear offers. I too have listened to 'the good old mixes' from the likes of Abbey Road and Ocean Way, and can't help but think the appeal simply comes down to nostalgia. There is a certain element of warmth and body to them, but nothing that would have me wanting a real console and cutting tracks to vinyl. I think I'm just a sucker for pristine, intricate sound though!
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FarleyCZ

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 07:56:03 am »
Also... to be honest I've never worked with analog tape machines, but just out of experimentation I find it much more efficient to pinpoint tracks in the mixdown that could benefit from analog imperfections and apply some tape sim onto them instead of trying to emulate it on a master.
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Heatcliff

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 03:19:31 pm »
First off, I am mainly using plugins (including UAD and co) - but I gotta say - there is still something that real hardware does to the sound that software doesn't. Don't know if it's the DA/AD process - but there is something"real and musical" about running your songs through outboard.
Personally, I started to use a (hardware) summing device last year, and there is something it does, that software plugins can't (or at least i couldn't get them to do).
Now, the question if it makes a song "better", i don't know - there has been a lot of great songs mixed and mastered with software only. However the older i get, the more i can hear and personally prefer that "outboard" song and warmth.

FarleyCZ

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 06:14:34 pm »
I'm really interested in this. You're definitely not first one I hear it from. Do you know  where I could find some example of AB comparisons between same mixdown once with analog and once with digital summing? (Preferably not by any gear manufacturer, those can be biased.)
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Heatcliff

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 03:55:14 pm »
Probably in the gearslutz forum...

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2016, 06:25:14 am »
ive worked with both an i think it mostly depends on who is listening? like my girlfriend who just knows good music from bad cant tell if i used a juno synth over sylenth. but coming from someone who uses both if mixed the right way you can hear a difference thats just IMO. good discussion tho this forum rules

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 08:59:02 am »
I'm really interested in this. You're definitely not first one I hear it from. Do you know  where I could find some example of AB comparisons between same mixdown once with analog and once with digital summing? (Preferably not by any gear manufacturer, those can be biased.)

https://soundcloud.com/maarten-vorwerk/digital-vs-analog

The first part is mastered digital and the second one with analog.

FarleyCZ

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 02:01:14 pm »
I'll have to check it on a proper monitors/headphones later. ...but on earbuds (Klipsh S4) eventhough I definitely can hear some difference (probably in favor of the analog) it's not a day and night difference. Bass is tiny bit clearer, highs are rolled of a tiny bit (edit: and it's kinda wider), but it doesn't feel like huge, impossible to match difference. Anybody hearing it on proper equipment? Thanks for the comparison, man. I wonder if it's mix of analog paths, analog console or analog summing.

EDIT: Ok, on decent headphones (and being able to use both ears now, lol :D), there's a stereo widening effect audible on the analog one. There definitely is a difference, but it's still don't feel like I'd need to invest money into that difference. I've even heard some emulations that kind of gave similar effect in SW form. ...if needed. Dunno. Opinions? :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 07:24:17 pm by FarleyCZ »
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Schematic

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 09:25:27 pm »
Here's a blind test for you, this is PRE mastering, no use of analogue in the mix except for summing. One has been summed digitally, one has had the main subgroups summed in analogue (using an SPL MixDream XP).

A: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ptf08bafFwTjhaNGF6bU1yUUk/view?usp=sharing
B: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ptf08bafFwNFpsZUtWdUpib2M/view?usp=sharing

I know I hear the difference, and the two definitely do not phase cancel, not by a long shot. Which is which?
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FarleyCZ

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 09:32:31 pm »
Here's a blind test for you, this is PRE mastering, no use of analogue in the mix except for summing. One has been summed digitally, one has had the main subgroups summed in analogue (using an SPL MixDream XP).

A: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ptf08bafFwTjhaNGF6bU1yUUk/view?usp=sharing
B: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ptf08bafFwNFpsZUtWdUpib2M/view?usp=sharing

I know I hear the difference, and the two definitely do not phase cancel, not by a long shot. Which is which?
Judging solely by that similar width difference I'd say B = Analog, A = Digital.
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Schematic

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Re: Conspiracy theory about analogue warmth
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2016, 04:06:22 am »
Judging solely by that similar width difference I'd say B = Analog, A = Digital.

Interesting. It is in fact the opposite, A is analogue and B is digital. The difference is mostly in the low end, with the top end also being a little less abrasive imo. I think that's where you're hearing the width difference, it's not actually because one or the other is wider it's just because some of the wider elements are in the high frequencies which got smoothed out a bit in the analogue version (so it might not sound quite as wide as a result).
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