Anyone have success stories of going from being really shitty at drum programming to very good at it? I'm not a drummer so it's not natural for me. I'm trying to get better at creating more interesting patterns, learning where to properly place toms/cymbals in respect to kicks/snares, programming velocities that sound typical for an actual drummer, programming a natural sounding groove without resorting to presets, and even identifying quality samples that fit the style of the song (I usually write pop/hip-hop crossover songs and am terrible at finding proper samples for them). Any advice for what I should study/read/listen to?

Sorry, me again. Firstly, apologies if this comes across patronising, it's not intentional...

One thing that helped me get slightly beyond "4-floor kick, backbeat snare and 16th highs" and "layer after layer of percussion parts that don't really work together" was learning about hockets (music theory term, not a description of how you clear your throat into a bucket).

You'd start by singing a rhythm to yourself - maybe even literally sing it, like "chak splat diddy diddy chak splat"... then, you get that down in a MIDI sequencer grid somehow. Just all on one note/pitch is fine, the rhythm's the first priority.

Then, you distribute the notes between different percussion sounds. I dunno what DAW you're using but... in Ableton maybe you'd make a Drum Rack with 16 conga/perc sounds? Then, if you push the MIDI notes up and down, different percussion sounds will play different notes in the rhythm.

If the rhythm plays in the context of an existing main kick-snare-high pattern... well, some of the hocket notes probably fall on snares or highs or kicks, in which case... maybe the snare or high should be the voice for that particular note. If you're starting from scratch (and if it suits the musical style you're working in) you could use the kick/snare/highs as the voices in your hocket, then embellish it a bit with some subtle, delicate sounds to fill the gaps?

If you get it right, you end up with a tasty rhythm/groove, but it sounds holistic, like a drummer's playing the whole thing. Because... I guess you're not just throwing layer after layer on top of the basic beat.

Also there's a broader implication: a dance music groove is kind of like a hocket between drum sounds and more or less percussive synths?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJyOMwoL_8M

Right from the start of that track I hear a hocket between the kick and the bassline, and the syncopated echo/reverb off the claps ("boom. doo-by doop doooo")? To me, that's what makes the track funky/groovy. So yeh, when I'm trying to write a rhythm I'm thinking "where's the hocket? How can I bring it out? How can I avoid messing it up?"

Sorry if that's just me crapping on, hope it helps

One trick I've learned is humming your beat into your microphone directly to your DAW. Then you can place the drums according. I always beat box random beats while I'm going about my day. Once you've got the drums all down in midi I would recommend messing with the velocity.

If you don't really have a clue where to place drums at all; I would recommend you just listen to more music with drums you'd like to produce. Even listening to songs with drums you would never consider using is helpful to get your creativity flowing.

Thanks everyone, that's all really helpful. Didn't think about recording the beats into my mic and going from there, that's an awesome idea. But yeah, it sounds like I should just spend more time studying the drums in music and trying to emulate and then tweak my own drums until they sound more natural. My only concern is programming a great groove into my patterns. I've had a hard time finding articles or tutorials online that go into depth about achieving a nice groove in your tracks. I know it mainly depends on your beats not being perfectly on the grid, but I'd like to know more of the specifics, for example, should the snare be ~# of ms behind or in front of the beat, etc. I once read a tip that said you can improve the groove of your track very quickly just by moving every snare a couple of ms off the grid, but once I did this, it made my vocals sound extremely out of time. Anyway, if anyone has suggestions for tutorials or reading material that go more into "groove theory" (if that even exists), I'd really appreciate it.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write all this advice. This forum is a god send!

^ Someone on here called soupandreas linked to Mr Carmack a few days back, I liked it. soupandreas' shit is dope too: https://soundcloud.com/soupandreas

I love reggae rhythm patterns. But the one thing that they do well is, nearly every instrument that you can hear fills up the phrase at certain points. So it's just a really big sound that gets you moving on all ends.

The jazz comment wontolla suggested is also good.

but honestly, just study drumming. I some times finger drum my patterns on the table as i write them. or do the motions of how i'd be playing the drums.

Even if you don't play drums, just imagine the drum set and start playing it. Even if you have to do one part of the drum kit at a time.

Listen to Aphex Twin,Squarepusher,Venetian Snares,Autechre,Xanopticon.

But the problem is, that listening to them, won't learn you how to do it yourself.

Quote from: fxbip on February 27, 2016, 09:15:20 am

Listen to Aphex Twin,Squarepusher,Venetian Snares,Autechre,Xanopticon.

But the problem is, that listening to them, won't learn you how to do it yourself.

I said listen to them AND I SAID TOO to try reproduce the patterns.Just listening obviously isnt enough.Thats how i learned drum programming and breakbeat.I'm just saying what worked for me.That's what the OP asked for.