Author Topic: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?  (Read 18049 times)

refaultmusic

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EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« on: July 08, 2016, 03:44:52 pm »
For years I've maintained that EQ'ing after my sidechain compression is the way to go because I heard it somewhere on the net. (haha I know) I've included a screen shot of my processing chain on a Lead Synth. The first 2 chains are for making the sound pleasant. Then I follow with my two sidechain compressors and an EQ. Is this a good approach for a channel that is being sidechained by my kick and snare signals? What are the reasons for EQ'ing after or before your sidechain? Much Love!

Marrow Machines

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2016, 04:47:50 pm »
Consider your effects chain and what you're actually trying to achieve.

i'll explain this with distortion and reverb.

The differences between a distorted reverb and a distortion that's being reverb hold different properties and are much different.


If you want to get reverb that has the characteristics of some kind of distortion, lets say tape. Then you'd apply a reverb unit then the tape distortion in order to get a reverb that has been recorded on to tape or is being distorted by tape.

The other way around, a distortion unit that has reverb being applied to it, is slightly different. In this case, it's as if you're taking a distorted signal and adding reverb to it.



Back to the topic.

It depends on what you want to do with your signal and how you want it to effect the processing, as i've stated before. So do you want to have a pre-eq effect, where as your EQ would shape the frequency content that the side chain is being effected? or do you want to process the signal after the channel is side chained?

in this case, you must look to your side chain channel and ask yourself if you want to effect that particular signal in a PRE or POST effect fashion.

the PRE and POST settings are also useful for sends/return, auxiliary, and buss effects (just to throw out as many names for them as possible).


Go do some research on PRE and POST signal processing and apply it to your question that you have. when you apply and experiment, you will have a better understanding.
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Wontolla

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2016, 06:44:15 pm »
Consider your effects chain and what you're actually trying to achieve.

i'll explain this with distortion and reverb.

The differences between a distorted reverb and a distortion that's being reverb hold different properties and are much different.


If you want to get reverb that has the characteristics of some kind of distortion, lets say tape. Then you'd apply a reverb unit then the tape distortion in order to get a reverb that has been recorded on to tape or is being distorted by tape.

The other way around, a distortion unit that has reverb being applied to it, is slightly different. In this case, it's as if you're taking a distorted signal and adding reverb to it.



Back to the topic.

It depends on what you want to do with your signal and how you want it to effect the processing, as i've stated before. So do you want to have a pre-eq effect, where as your EQ would shape the frequency content that the side chain is being effected? or do you want to process the signal after the channel is side chained?

in this case, you must look to your side chain channel and ask yourself if you want to effect that particular signal in a PRE or POST effect fashion.

the PRE and POST settings are also useful for sends/return, auxiliary, and buss effects (just to throw out as many names for them as possible).


Go do some research on PRE and POST signal processing and apply it to your question that you have. when you apply and experiment, you will have a better understanding.

While this is all very good advice, and definitely worth considering, the order of EQ and sidechain specifically (as long as it's just ducking via sidechain) doesn't really make a difference.

Arktopolis

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2016, 07:04:20 pm »
Short answer: it makes no difference. Try it, you shouldn't be able to hear any difference whichever way you choose.

The reason is that sidechain compression just adjusts the gain of the input, independent of what the input is. EQ and gain adjustment (which is just multiplication) happen to be operations in which the order doesn't matter. (note: this doesn't apply to analog modeling EQs). For the same reason it doesn't matter in which order you chain EQs - have you ever asked in which order the different filters in your EQ are applied?

What Marrow said is true and very important, but it doesn't matter in this particular case. If you'd asked the same question for regular compression, the answer would be different.

E: now everyone can see how slow I'm at replying  :-[
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 07:07:35 pm by Arktopolis »

Marrow Machines

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2016, 08:56:10 pm »
I don't see how it wouldn't matter.

If side chain compression is a parallel signal that's activating a compressor, and that parallel signal is being processed with an eq, then wouldn't the compressor be activating based on a certain frequency based on what the eq is doing?

edit:the only way it wouldn't matter is that, you're only taking just some(either more or less based on eq settings) SIGNAL from the parallel out to activate the compressor. By eqing, you're adjusting the signal characteristic to influence how the compressor is activating.

we know what is activating it, but that's being changed some where along the path.

but during the path to the compressor, it could just end up being some kind of weird input gain thing that the eq is doing based on frequency. in that case, then you'd only be getting a difference of input amplitude and not actually adjusting the compressor's output frequency context.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:11:10 pm by Marrow Machines »
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Wontolla

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2016, 09:41:20 pm »
From the way he describes it, the EQ is on the sound being sidechained, not the sounds (kick and snare) triggering the sidechain.

Marrow Machines

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2016, 10:40:45 pm »
From the way he describes it, the EQ is on the sound being sidechained, not the sounds (kick and snare) triggering the sidechain.

I didn't quite see that with the given examples.

Thank you for clarifying.

If the EQ is on the sound that's being side chained, the only effect it will bring would be as if you just threw an EQ and started altering that effect.



That leads me to believe that the side chain compressor location is what might alter your sound in a way that i've described in the previous post. But that's dependent upon certain processing of effects and what not.

The only difference in the above statement would be how drastic effects are being played out given where the side chain is located in the signal chain. and this is an extremely subtle effect.
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ZAU

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2016, 02:05:41 am »
Subtractive EQ before side chain compression, or any form of compression for that matter to me generates the best results. Cut out those yucky and useless frequencies first before compression. Then Additive EQ (if necessary) after the compressor. So if you have spots in the sound that you can and want to boost, this is where you would do it. In short, sometimes you'll need 2 EQs, both before and after the compressor.

refaultmusic

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2016, 04:25:27 pm »
Subtractive EQ before side chain compression, or any form of compression for that matter to me generates the best results. Cut out those yucky and useless frequencies first before compression. Then Additive EQ (if necessary) after the compressor. So if you have spots in the sound that you can and want to boost, this is where you would do it. In short, sometimes you'll need 2 EQs, both before and after the compressor.

I like this approach. I was definitely referring to a lead channel that is sidechained to my kick and snare

Marrow Machines

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2016, 07:49:20 pm »
Subtractive EQ before side chain compression, or any form of compression for that matter to me generates the best results. Cut out those yucky and useless frequencies first before compression. Then Additive EQ (if necessary) after the compressor. So if you have spots in the sound that you can and want to boost, this is where you would do it. In short, sometimes you'll need 2 EQs, both before and after the compressor.

I like this approach. I was definitely referring to a lead channel that is sidechained to my kick and snare

that's no different than just EQing then.


What Zau described works best if you have an EQ then a compressor all in one channel.

I got some more information, and to me, the input signal to a side chain is really just being used to activate the compressor. So it's not actually altering the signal of the side chain. unless you wanna read my theory about parallel input gain being augmented by the EQ causing the side chain to be weird.

But also consider where you're putting your side chain compression on the signal you want to be side chained to your kick/snare. that will have an effect ranging from subtle to extreme,
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ErikF

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2016, 11:02:55 pm »
I always EQ before sidechaining. Most other FX as well.

VCTRLXNDR

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Re: EQ before Sidechain Compression or after? Or both?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2016, 11:55:51 pm »
First, I make sure I get the tone of the sound right. For example, if I have a massive lead on one channel, I'll put redux on it or some flanger or whatever.
After I have the desired tone, I would EQ it.
Sidechaining effects the amplitude of the sound so I save that for the very end of my chain. Sometimes if I get a click when I sidechain my sub-bass, I'll EQ after the compressor.

So.. Pitch (notes) -> Tone (effects) -> Amplitude (compressor)

P.S. I have completely separate channels for my reverb and delay, but sidechaining or compression always comes last on the chain.