Author Topic: Analyzed Jauz x Pegboard Nerds Ableton Project with interesting results  (Read 12852 times)

RoboDrop

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I entered Jauz and Pegboard Nerd's remix contest for "Get on Up" a few months ago and they were kind enough to include the full Ableton project complete with effects chains and premastering chains.  After analyzing the mastering process they used to achieve commercial loudness and sound, I'm somewhat confused. 

This project appeared to have only about -2db of headroom with the premaster chain turned off, which confused me as I've read and heard about -6db to be the area to shoot for prior to mastering.  The premaster chain was quite minimal with only an EQ, glue compressor, utility for gain reduction, sausage fattener and a limiter turned up to around 14 db, that's it. 

I'm intrigued as this is completely different than my own process and seems much more fluid/efficient while also getting much louder.  Would love to find out more about this method if any of you are familiar!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 10:52:39 pm by RoboDrop »

Gabe D

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Interesting.

Now Im not going to pretend to be an expert on the mastering process, but I think I can clear up the -6db stuff. If you master your own work, you can put the premaster dbs at whatever you like. However, if you are sending it off to be mastered professionally, the -6dbs is necessary to give the engineer all the headroom he may need for your specific project. Everyone uses different processes to get similar results. At least that's my take on it.
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RoboDrop

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Interesting.

Now Im not going to pretend to be an expert on the mastering process, but I think I can clear up the -6db stuff. If you master your own work, you can put the premaster dbs at whatever you like. However, if you are sending it off to be mastered professionally, the -6dbs is necessary to give the engineer all the headroom he may need for your specific project. Everyone uses different processes to get similar results. At least that's my take on it.

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying!

Mussar

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-6 dB is really more of a general guideline. Like gd4 said, you wanna give the mastering engineer a lot of room to work with - they use a lot of very high end equalizers and compressors/limiters that each try to eek out every last little bit of space in the mix they can afford to take.

When you're working in your own DAW, you also have to keep in mind that up until the audio exits your mastering chain and is sent to your audio interface to play through your speakers or headphones, it's all digital information that is subject to the wonderful world of 32-bit floating point audio processing. You can have a signal go about 180-200 dB over 0 before any distortion occurs, so as long as there is something preventing it from going above 0 at the end of your master chain you could just say "screw headroom" and mix at full volume. Steve Duda has said he works with his kick at unity gain (0dB), so there's nothing wrong with it.

the_almost_easy

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So crazy since ive been analyzing this project for some time too. I actually just had it open and then saw this post. Ive come to find out that you shouldnt let the rules of producing stop your creativity. But in this case yeah, they get the end result mix in a different way.

At times its hard to make sense of all the gain staging they did with a utility on every channel. but yet the channel volume is above 0db.
So maybe we are just seeing the in and outs of a work flow that doesnt make that much sense to us.

slimer

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I've noticed KSHMR doing the same thing with an Ableton standard peak catcher and a couple instances of utility with about +2 decibels of gain boost. I guess it really is all in your ears when it comes to getting your track where you want to be. In other news, someone should definitely link me this ableton file and I'm forever grateful.

RoboDrop

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So crazy since ive been analyzing this project for some time too. I actually just had it open and then saw this post. Ive come to find out that you shouldnt let the rules of producing stop your creativity. But in this case yeah, they get the end result mix in a different way.

At times its hard to make sense of all the gain staging they did with a utility on every channel. but yet the channel volume is above 0db.
So maybe we are just seeing the in and outs of a work flow that doesnt make that much sense to us.

That is pretty crazy man!  That project has been an absolutely goldmine for me for learning purposes, I'm very grateful to both of them!

It's really interesting to see that others have noticed this too and also questioned their own process :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 10:22:14 pm by RoboDrop »

Marrow Machines

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The difference between gain and volume,

One controls the input, the other controls the output.

It's a weird way of understanding signal strength and balancing those two perspectives.

It's like saying "i want this to be louder" then turn up the volume or "the signal isn't strong enough" turn up the gain.

After literally 10 years of playing music live, live sound, and production my friend told me the difference between the two when we were setting up before a gig.

There's so much analogue in this digital world and a lot of it gets looked over.
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ion

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The difference between gain and volume,

One controls the input, the other controls the output.

It's a weird way of understanding signal strength and balancing those two perspectives.

It's like saying "i want this to be louder" then turn up the volume or "the signal isn't strong enough" turn up the gain.

After literally 10 years of playing music live, live sound, and production my friend told me the difference between the two when we were setting up before a gig.

There's so much analogue in this digital world and a lot of it gets looked over.

Mind.Blown.

I never thought about it like that....
Gone

sinnergy

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I also took a look at at this and found some interesting stuff.

What I found interesting was their sidechaining... At this point in the bass music loudness war, I was under the impression basically everyone is using some form of volume automation sidechain that knocks the volume of more or less the entire mix to zero (Mids+Sub at least)

In this track, only the subbass was getting dropped to zero, in fact, the heavy midrange synths were only being knocked down ~50%, the keys/leads a bit more, and just slightly on the percussion and background stuff. Maybe this was done just because of the bass house signature groove?

It just seems like, how are you going to achieve such a loud mix when you've got the loudest thing in your mix, the kick, hitting right on top of another element that is right up there in gain, the mids, and not have the mids ducked all the way down.

Either way, saved all those LFOtool settings for when I wanna try my hand at a bass house tune ;)

And even today, watching the Funtcase in the studio, he talks about how he doesn't sidechain very heavily since it sounds unnatural (which, is sort of rich considering how unnatural the sort of music is to begin with).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 05:35:36 am by sinnergy »

Miles Dominic

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I also took a look at at this and found some interesting stuff.

What I found interesting was their sidechaining... At this point in the bass music loudness war, I was under the impression basically everyone is using some form of volume automation sidechain that knocks the volume of more or less the entire mix to zero (Mids+Sub at least)

In this track, only the subbass was getting dropped to zero, in fact, the heavy midrange synths were only being knocked down ~50%, the keys/leads a bit more, and just slightly on the percussion and background stuff. Maybe this was done just because of the bass house signature groove?

It just seems like, how are you going to achieve such a loud mix when you've got the loudest thing in your mix, the kick, hitting right on top of another element that is right up there in gain, the mids, and not have the mids ducked all the way down.

Either way, saved all those LFOtool settings for when I wanna try my hand at a bass house tune ;)

And even today, watching the Funtcase in the studio, he talks about how he doesn't sidechain very heavily since it sounds unnatural (which, is sort of rich considering how unnatural the sort of music is to begin with).
The mids don't take up nearly as much headroom as the sub and kick so you don't have to sidechain them 100% in order to get a loud mix m8 :)

sinnergy

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I also took a look at at this and found some interesting stuff.

What I found interesting was their sidechaining... At this point in the bass music loudness war, I was under the impression basically everyone is using some form of volume automation sidechain that knocks the volume of more or less the entire mix to zero (Mids+Sub at least)

In this track, only the subbass was getting dropped to zero, in fact, the heavy midrange synths were only being knocked down ~50%, the keys/leads a bit more, and just slightly on the percussion and background stuff. Maybe this was done just because of the bass house signature groove?

It just seems like, how are you going to achieve such a loud mix when you've got the loudest thing in your mix, the kick, hitting right on top of another element that is right up there in gain, the mids, and not have the mids ducked all the way down.

Either way, saved all those LFOtool settings for when I wanna try my hand at a bass house tune ;)

And even today, watching the Funtcase in the studio, he talks about how he doesn't sidechain very heavily since it sounds unnatural (which, is sort of rich considering how unnatural the sort of music is to begin with).
The mids don't take up nearly as much headroom as the sub and kick so you don't have to sidechain them 100% in order to get a loud mix m8 :)

Guess not, I just figured at this point everyone's trying to squeeze every half decibel out of the mix that they can. But I guess when you get good enough, you can lay off that sort of stuff.

Going to try easing up on the mids SC in my tracks and see if that helps the groove and flow a bit.