Author Topic: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections  (Read 10756 times)

Lydian

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Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« on: February 26, 2016, 04:08:46 am »
I have a question regarding the levels of the kick drum from section to section. When it comes to mixing the kick into an arrangement do you ever change the level of the kick in different song sections?

Say you have the kick playing in the intro at -8db but then in the chorus it just sounds to loud in comparison to the rest of the instruments. Do you raise the level of the kick to -5db or do you make all the new instruments in the chorus louder instead?

The same question goes for the bass. Let's say that the kick and bass sound okay in the intro but during the chorus it sounds off when being played at the same volume. How would someone handle this in the mix? Volume automation? Duplicate the track and create a separate "chorus bass"?

Final question, are there any of you that actually use "different" kicks altogether in different song sections? If it helps with anything I'll just say that I'm referring to progressive house specifically but other genres are acceptable as well.

Very interested in your responses if you guys would kind enough to take the time to type it out.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 04:14:01 am by Lydian »
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Marrow Machines

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 06:05:32 am »
Yes, you have absolute freedom to do what ever it is you wanted to do with any thing that you can do inside of the daw

like...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zlUxZjNh3A

for real go listen to some IDM and it will give you a clue as to what you can and can't do lol

or even square pusher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruc0TnSSi9Y




Your questions are really pointed and specific to a point where it should be handled by dutiful research on your own part.

Your questions are ALMOST, answering themselves. I think this is due to your intuition of being a musician.

Another comment is that you're asking about taste, you have to develop that on your own and honestly the truthful answer to your entire post is "it depends".

...

You have to consider the volume of groups as well as individual components. your individual components ratios are kept by the group volume. The group volume adds another depth of ratio control.

You're literally building up to the master track or pre master in this way of learning mixing with individual elements, mixing with groups, then mixing for the master.

If you've actually listened to those tracks i posted, you'll realize how much you can do. BTW, those guys use analogue gear and then do some weird stuff that i don't even know about, hell square pusher basically made the hard ware to get those effects in like the 90's.

You have to use your earn and use what you know to get the results that are desired as an artist.


EDIT: sorry, i may have come off as an ass initially, but my point still stands. I am all jacked up on coffee,  psytrance, homework, and fatigue.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 06:07:54 am by Marrow Machines »
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Arktopolis

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 06:21:35 am »
I'm really just learning, and don't know about the conventions of prog house, but here are my observations anyway. I usually do vary the volume/timbre of the kick in one way or another during the intro. So I would set the fader where it should be in the drop, and then use things like note velocity or a gain plugin, and HP and LP filtering to control and build up the kick during the intro. And I guess the goal is that, if anything, the kick should sound the most powerful in the chorus, so in the intro I could keep it slightly quieter, but not louder!

The same question goes for the bass. Let's say that the kick and bass sound okay in the intro but during the chorus it sounds off when being played at the same volume. How would someone handle this in the mix? Volume automation? Duplicate the track and create a separate "chorus bass"?

What do you mean by "off"? If it's just the relative levels, then automating the volume (preferably a gain plugin, so that the mixer fader controls the overall level) sounds fine. I guess if the instrumentation changes a lot, then it might be easier to make a copy of the bass, which you can process independently.

As for switching samples, if there is a drastic stylistic change from section to section, it might be the most natural option; in fact, that's what I did in my latest WIP: https://soundcloud.com/arktopolis/trance1-newdrop2/s-P6HCR. I wanted a softer kick in the intro, and then a more hard-hitting one in the drop, so I just used two samples.

Lydian

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 06:25:25 am »
Yes, you have absolute freedom to do what ever it is you wanted to do with any thing that you can do inside of the daw

like...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zlUxZjNh3A

for real go listen to some IDM and it will give you a clue as to what you can and can't do lol

or even square pusher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruc0TnSSi9Y




Your questions are really pointed and specific to a point where it should be handled by dutiful research on your own part.

Your questions are ALMOST, answering themselves. I think this is due to your intuition of being a musician.

Another comment is that you're asking about taste, you have to develop that on your own and honestly the truthful answer to your entire post is "it depends".

...

You have to consider the volume of groups as well as individual components. your individual components ratios are kept by the group volume. The group volume adds another depth of ratio control.

You're literally building up to the master track or pre master in this way of learning mixing with individual elements, mixing with groups, then mixing for the master.

If you've actually listened to those tracks i posted, you'll realize how much you can do. BTW, those guys use analogue gear and then do some weird stuff that i don't even know about, hell square pusher basically made the hard ware to get those effects in like the 90's.

You have to use your earn and use what you know to get the results that are desired as an artist.


EDIT: sorry, i may have come off as an ass initially, but my point still stands. I am all jacked up on coffee,  psytrance, homework, and fatigue.

Thanks for your thoughts Marrow. Didn't come off as "ass'ish" at all. I get that theoretically I can do whatever the hell I want when it comes to music. I'm just stuck on a track that I'm about 18 hours in on and this was the "problem" that sort of came up.

I've been starting this new habit of mentally organizing the mix into groups of the instruments/notes, percussion/drumloop and the FX/Ambience. I think it's helped in regards to balance but I still run into obstacles quite often.

I'll go listen to some of my favorite tracks and see how they work. I think that might be more beneficial for a question as specific as this like you mentioned.


Btw, that venetian snare song is a total wtf... Sounded crazier than Savant.
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Marrow Machines

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 06:42:28 am »
Thanks for your thoughts Marrow. Didn't come off as "ass'ish" at all. I get that theoretically I can do whatever the hell I want when it comes to music. I'm just stuck on a track that I'm about 18 hours in on and this was the "problem" that sort of came up.

I've been starting this new habit of mentally organizing the mix into groups of the instruments/notes, percussion/drumloop and the FX/Ambience. I think it's helped in regards to balance but I still run into obstacles quite often.

I'll go listen to some of my favorite tracks and see how they work. I think that might be more beneficial for a question as specific as this like you mentioned.


Btw, that venetian snare song is a total wtf... Sounded crazier than Savant.

Also, i would suggest kind of evening out your velocities. I've worked on a track with a friend who deliberately made the chorus louder than the verse, and it kind of messed every thing up. mostly because it wasn't that proportional and it was just off for the entire mix.

I know what you're asking, and you need to revisit the gain stage and prioritization of the gain stage in order to best optimize your mix. The gain stage is of the individual components, then should be looked at on a group setting.

it's also about balancing the power and the priority any section of groups or components in the group when you're dealing with volume, and that's like one of the biggest things that you do outside of eq and panning.

I'll skype with you and explain my reasoning of the entire placement.
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Lydian

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 06:48:10 am »
I'm really just learning, and don't know about the conventions of prog house, but here are my observations anyway. I usually do vary the volume/timbre of the kick in one way or another during the intro. So I would set the fader where it should be in the drop, and then use things like note velocity or a gain plugin, and HP and LP filtering to control and build up the kick during the intro. And I guess the goal is that, if anything, the kick should sound the most powerful in the chorus, so in the intro I could keep it slightly quieter, but not louder!

The same question goes for the bass. Let's say that the kick and bass sound okay in the intro but during the chorus it sounds off when being played at the same volume. How would someone handle this in the mix? Volume automation? Duplicate the track and create a separate "chorus bass"?

What do you mean by "off"? If it's just the relative levels, then automating the volume (preferably a gain plugin, so that the mixer fader controls the overall level) sounds fine. I guess if the instrumentation changes a lot, then it might be easier to make a copy of the bass, which you can process independently.

As for switching samples, if there is a drastic stylistic change from section to section, it might be the most natural option; in fact, that's what I did in my latest WIP: https://soundcloud.com/arktopolis/trance1-newdrop2/s-P6HCR. I wanted a softer kick in the intro, and then a more hard-hitting one in the drop, so I just used two samples.

Makes sense arrangement wise considering that you would want the intro to build up into the chorus. When I say off I'll use the current track I'm working on as an example. During the intro my kick doesn't have much of a transient because it isn't really needed as much in the mix. "at least according to my taste". However during the chorus I need the kick to punch through more which requires that transient.

At first I made a duplicate track of the same kick and messed around the with the attack settings on the compressor to give the drop kick more of a transient. Then I asked myself however was it really the right move to variate the timbre of such an important element? I wasn't really too sure whether it would lead to mix down problems further down the line with the track as a whole.
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Lydian

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 07:01:48 am »
Also, i would suggest kind of evening out your velocities. I've worked on a track with a friend who deliberately made the chorus louder than the verse, and it kind of messed every thing up. mostly because it wasn't that proportional and it was just off for the entire mix.

I know what you're asking, and you need to revisit the gain stage and prioritization of the gain stage in order to best optimize your mix. The gain stage is of the individual components, then should be looked at on a group setting.

it's also about balancing the power and the priority any section of groups or components in the group when you're dealing with volume, and that's like one of the biggest things that you do outside of eq and panning.

I'll skype with you and explain my reasoning of the entire placement.

This is exactly what I was afraid of and was subconsciously the main reason why I asked in the first place. I get that dynamically in most music having a chorus louder than a verse is a desired effect but arrangement wise I feel like using too many instruments (3 different kicks etc...) within a mix just makes it sounds like there's to many different ideas in a song. I've ran into this obstacle years ago before I even produced. The guys on the ultimate guitar forum would listen to string quartets I would write in Sibelius and their primary concern was that there were too many ideas and the track sounded like 3 different songs in one. The way I solved that was by limiting my ideas into one or two themes.

I feel like the same thing applies in music production but instead of dealing with notes now I have to deal with the bad habit of including to many sounds or different instrumentations/timbres.

In the song I'm writing right now I feel like there's a smooth transition between the intro and the verse dynamically. I haven't completely finished the arrangement for the verse but I already know what I want to do for the chorus. I have no idea how I'm going to transition though because the instruments in the verse are different from the chorus even though the notes are the same.

In regards to gain staging... is any of that really important when it comes to dance music? Don't get me wrong I naturally gain stage my synths to a pretty average level to avoid clipping and inaudibility but I thought the whole point of it in the first place was to reduce the noise to floor ratio. It makes sense when I record vocals, guitars, or acoustic instruments but for a synth in which that "noise" is essentially nonexistent does it really matter?

The only clear benefit I see from it in electronic music would be to avoid clipping.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:05:31 am by Lydian »
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Marrow Machines

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Re: Variating Kick Drum Levels Between Sections
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2016, 07:19:44 am »

This is exactly what I was afraid of and was subconsciously the main reason why I asked in the first place. I get that dynamically in most music having a chorus louder than a verse is a desired effect but arrangement wise I feel like using too many instruments (3 different kicks etc...) within a mix just makes it sounds like there's to many different ideas in a song. I've ran into this obstacle years ago before I even produced. The guys on the ultimate guitar forum would listen to string quartets I would write in Sibelius and their primary concern was that there were too many ideas and the track sounded like 3 different songs in one. The way I solved that was by limiting my ideas into one or two themes.

I feel like the same thing applies in music production but instead of dealing with notes now I have to deal with the bad habit of including to many sounds or different instrumentations/timbres.

In the song I'm writing right now I feel like there's a smooth transition between the intro and the verse dynamically. I haven't completely finished the arrangement for the verse but I already know what I want to do for the chorus. I have no idea how I'm going to transition though because the instruments in the verse are different from the chorus even though the notes are the same.

In regards to gain staging... is any of that really important when it comes to dance music? Don't get me wrong I naturally gain stage my synths to a pretty average level to avoid clipping and inaudibility but I thought the whole point of it in the first place was to reduce the noise to floor ratio. It makes sense when I record vocals, guitars, or acoustic instruments but for a synth in which that "noise" is essentially nonexistent does it really matter?

The only clear benefit I see from it in electronic music would be to avoid clipping.

The way i used the term does not relate that much to the analogue concept. I was using it in a terms of how you prioritize your volume. Do you want drums(or what ever/group) or sub(or what ever/group) to be more prominent in the mix? if you choose A over B; then turn B down first (important), and if A is still lacking, Turn A up. Tweak both A and B, to get the right mixture and avoid clipping. I would also recommend you do this to A's and B's corresponding group.

That's what i was suggesting. the preparation of the mix to how you want it to be is the concept, and the way i use stage.
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