Author Topic: question regarding compression  (Read 10036 times)

katz12

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question regarding compression
« on: February 08, 2016, 10:43:26 am »
I know that a compressor typically consists of
threshold
ratio
attack
release
gain

i understand what each of these does such like the ratio controls the strength of the compressor etc, but could you not just automate volume to achieve the same effect? For example, a compressor reduces the level of audio that exceeds the specified threshold set by the user, so you can use a compressor to reduce db of the loud parts and not so much on the quieter parts. wouldn't volume automation achieve the same effect?

FarleyCZ

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2016, 11:35:41 am »
It would. In some cases it's even commonly done. Usually when you need to "fader-compensate" other things than just track's own volume. Google "vocal riding" for example.
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TylerWildman

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2016, 11:50:23 am »
Compressors work in a different way than just changing the volume of the audio overall, and it also depends on what it is you're compressing.

So, assuming you're talking about a compressor on a master chain of a completed track, when you say can't you just automate the volume to reduce the loud parts, you can, but you'll also be reducing the quiet and more subtle sounds on that same section. The compressor should reduce the dynamic range of anything that passes through it and makes everything sound more "equal" as opposed to just dropping the volume overall.

This also means that you can enhance the quieter sounds as well without really affecting the louder stuff. So whilst your peak can remain at 0db, the track will sound louder because the quieter sounds have been raised.

Google "Loudness War" ;)

Hope this helps :)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:59:35 am by TylerWildman »

FarleyCZ

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2016, 12:03:18 pm »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
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Miles Dominic

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2016, 06:54:08 pm »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.

Axis

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2016, 07:11:30 pm »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.

Well, you can always set volume automation to 0 (no effect) on those areas where the signal is below the threshold.

An "ideal" digital compressor does nothing but rides the volume according to its algorithm, so you can theoretically get the same result with volume automation (I say "theoretically" because your DAW may not allow you to set a huge number of automation points with sample-accurate precision... and even if it does, this will take you forever).

However, most compressors also add color (i.e. extra harmonics) to the sound, which is another reason to use compressors vs just automating volume.

FarleyCZ

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2016, 07:17:47 pm »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.
Nope. You've essentially described waveshaping. If it was "bending" the signal as you say, you'd hear pretty nasty harmonics being added to the signal.

But as Axis said, then you have "character" compressors with saturation curves. Those add a tiny bit of harmonics. Those you can't replace by automation. But clean compressor you theoretically can.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:20:18 pm by FarleyCZ »
"Earth is round right? Look at it from right angle and you'll be always on top of the world."
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Miles Dominic

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 09:10:50 am »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.
Nope. You've essentially described waveshaping. If it was "bending" the signal as you say, you'd hear pretty nasty harmonics being added to the signal.

But as Axis said, then you have "character" compressors with saturation curves. Those add a tiny bit of harmonics. Those you can't replace by automation. But clean compressor you theoretically can.

Maybe i didn't explain myself properly enough, but I'm fairly sure what I'm trying to say is not wrong (Atleast, i don't see how it could be) Feel free to point out any errors in my explanation though because I'm really curious to hear if its correct or not haha.

Lets say we have a kick and a bass playing and only the kick's transient plays above the threshold. The bass volume is unaltered because its below the threshold. However, a part of the kick that is above the treshhold is turned down. However, if you automate the mastervolume and turn down the volume at the moment where the kick's transient plays, you will also automatically turn down the volume of the rest of the instruments (in this case the bass).
So a different effect will be achieved by the volume automation vs. compression?


alex 1

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 10:31:17 am »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.
Nope. You've essentially described waveshaping. If it was "bending" the signal as you say, you'd hear pretty nasty harmonics being added to the signal.

But as Axis said, then you have "character" compressors with saturation curves. Those add a tiny bit of harmonics. Those you can't replace by automation. But clean compressor you theoretically can.

Maybe i didn't explain myself properly enough, but I'm fairly sure what I'm trying to say is not wrong (Atleast, i don't see how it could be) Feel free to point out any errors in my explanation though because I'm really curious to hear if its correct or not haha.

Lets say we have a kick and a bass playing and only the kick's transient plays above the threshold. The bass volume is unaltered because its below the threshold. However, a part of the kick that is above the treshhold is turned down. However, if you automate the mastervolume and turn down the volume at the moment where the kick's transient plays, you will also automatically turn down the volume of the rest of the instruments (in this case the bass).
So a different effect will be achieved by the volume automation vs. compression?

Sorry for the jungle of quotes. On phone.
The kick will force the compressor to lower the volume, and the volume will come back up, depending on the compressors release time.
So yeah, for something simple like this, automation is fine.
Myself I prefer vol envelope plugins to do that, and if I'm working with something other than 4/4 club music, I'll use midi notes to trigger the pattern reset, and automation to change to different curves.
Bit of a hassle, but saves a lot of cpu, and you can get the perfect curve, stupidly easy
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:32:54 am by alex 1 »

FarleyCZ

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Re: question regarding compression
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 10:31:58 am »
Yeah, it really depends on usecase you think about. If you speak about compession effecting something like an electronic kickdrum then yeah, you can draw automation instead of it. (When speaking about clean non-saturating compressors) ... but the advantage of compressor is that on stuff with "unpredictable" and/or quick transients (real drums, vocals, pianos, synths with a lot of modulation etc...) it will do the trick for you automatically.

So theoretically you could draw "compression-like" automation over a master channel or finished track, but it would take you weeks or months to do it. Compressor will do that for you instantly.
i don't think that holds true, because a compressor affects only the part of the signal above the treshold. Volume automation will change the volume of everything playing at that time, thus having a different effect.
Nope. You've essentially described waveshaping. If it was "bending" the signal as you say, you'd hear pretty nasty harmonics being added to the signal.

But as Axis said, then you have "character" compressors with saturation curves. Those add a tiny bit of harmonics. Those you can't replace by automation. But clean compressor you theoretically can.

Maybe i didn't explain myself properly enough, but I'm fairly sure what I'm trying to say is not wrong (Atleast, i don't see how it could be) Feel free to point out any errors in my explanation though because I'm really curious to hear if its correct or not haha.

Lets say we have a kick and a bass playing and only the kick's transient plays above the threshold. The bass volume is unaltered because its below the threshold. However, a part of the kick that is above the treshhold is turned down. However, if you automate the mastervolume and turn down the volume at the moment where the kick's transient plays, you will also automatically turn down the volume of the rest of the instruments (in this case the bass).
So a different effect will be achieved by the volume automation vs. compression?
If you speak about compression on master, then your bass will be turned down by that compressor too, but just for time of the transient + release time. ...so you won't notice it. If you draw the automation in a same way (short like that), it'll be the same effect as clean conpressor would do.
"Earth is round right? Look at it from right angle and you'll be always on top of the world."
...but don't overdo it, because that's called being a d***k.