Author Topic: How to write better/more complex chord progressions  (Read 15860 times)

iamtesko

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How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« on: January 21, 2016, 03:32:29 am »
So I've been playing guitar a long ass time so I know my basic theory (scales, intervals, constructing chords, etc) and I've written some melodically complex stuff, I just feel like I don't have the best understanding of how to create chord progressions, or rather why certain chords work they way they do with eachother. I've checked out a ton of stuff online already but nothing I've found really goes in depth.

Every so often I can write a dope chord progression but it's hit or miss every session, I'd like to have a bit more in depth understanding of that stuff so what resources could you guys recommend me?

Lydian

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 03:42:01 am »
Send me a message with a recording of some chord progressions you've written. I'll review them and give you feedback based off of where you're at in terms of complexity.

Also... send me some of your favorite chord progressions so I can analyze your taste.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:45:33 am by Lydian »
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Joseph

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 06:54:35 am »
Practice Practice Practice

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Miles Dominic

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 12:18:35 pm »
Practice and listen to other tracks with chord progressions you like. Thats the only way there is tbh.

iamtesko

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2016, 04:18:25 pm »
@Lydian I'll get back to you on that today man, thanks!

I understand when people give the "practice" advice, I get it, but that doesn't really help me out. I specifically asked for resources to help me understand why progressions work, as in why does V resolve nicely into I, why do some chords lead nicely into others (something about voice leading im assuming?), how to properly use inversions, etc.

There's definitely some theoretical aspect here that I don't know that'd help me get a better idea of what works. From there comes something I could actually practice.

Miles Dominic

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2016, 05:05:22 pm »
@Lydian I'll get back to you on that today man, thanks!

I understand when people give the "practice" advice, I get it, but that doesn't really help me out. I specifically asked for resources to help me understand why progressions work, as in why does V resolve nicely into I, why do some chords lead nicely into others (something about voice leading im assuming?), how to properly use inversions, etc.

There's definitely some theoretical aspect here that I don't know that'd help me get a better idea of what works. From there comes something I could actually practice.
Theory wont help you write better chord progressions though. Its, like you stated, more a method to explain why stuff sounds good, especially explaining how to resolve chords. You will always need your ears and creativity to come up with chords. As for the theory part, there's lots of good (online)-books out there and youtube tutorials. I just bought a dutch theory book for piano which explained theory when i started piano but there's probably similar books in english. However, i cannot stress enough that knowing theory will not help you magically make more complex progressions.

cryophonik

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2016, 06:42:42 pm »
However, i cannot stress enough that knowing theory will not help you magically make more complex progressions.

Exactly.  And, I'm going to start sounding like a broken record on this forum, but music theory and composition are two related, but different, things.  Plenty of people compose really excellent music with little theory knowledge, and many others have excellent grasps on theory, but have trouble composing.  The analogy that some of my profs used back in the day was to think of theory as learning the language, and composition as writing a novel or book of poetry.

As for the OP, the request seems to be that he wants more complexity because he feels that it will be better.  It's a bit hard to address the question without some more information or examples demonstrating where you're at in terms of simplicity/complexity.  But, I will say that, in most forms of pop music, complex chord progressions aren't usually the norm.  The chord progressions are generally quite simple and you'll find by close listening and learning that there are countless songs using the same few basic progressions.

As far as how chord progressions work, there are volumes of books written about this, so you won't get the answers you're looking for in one thread.  But, some of the fundamental things you'd be taught in a first-year composition course (and find in countless popular music songs) are to move up in seconds or fourths, or move down in thirds or fifths (same as moving up in fourths) when stringing chords together.  These are NOT rules, just tried and true approaches that work, and are good starting points.  Common examples:

I - IV - V7 - I (e.g., Cmaj - Fmaj - Gmaj7 - Cmaj): i.e., move from the major tonic (I) chord up a fourth to the IV (subdominant) chord, then up a second to the V7 dominant chord, and down a fifth (or, up a fourth) back to the tonic (I chord).

I - ii - V7 - I (e.g., Cmaj - Dmin - Gmaj7 - Cmaj): i.e., tonic (I) chord up a second to the ii chord, then up a fourth to the V7 dominant chord, and down a fifth back to the tonic (I chord).

i - VI - iv - V7 (e.g., Cmin - Abmaj - Fmin - G7): i.e., minor tonic (i) chord down a third to the VI chord, down another third to the iv chord, up a second to the V7 dominant chord, and down a fifth back to the tonic (i) chord.

Another common example that does not adhere to the guidelines (i.e., not rules) above is to move down in seconds (e.g., i - VII - VI in minor keys).  You won't find that progression very often in classical forms of music, but it's common in modern music.

A few other things to read up on are extensions (e.g., adding 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, etc intervals to a triad) or even compound chords (i.e., playing one triad on top of another - similar to extensions) to add more complexity and richness to your chords.  Also, consider and read up on the role of dissonance/consonance in chords and how they function to create tension and release in chord progressions.

Inversions are a great way to vary a common chord progression and are related to voice leading, which is also worth your time to get familiar with.

Hopefully, that's somewhat helpful.  But, as Lydian mentioned, having examples to work from would probably get you more pointed answers and advice.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 06:44:56 pm by cryophonik »
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Lydian

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2016, 06:45:42 pm »
@Lydian I'll get back to you on that today man, thanks!

I understand when people give the "practice" advice, I get it, but that doesn't really help me out. I specifically asked for resources to help me understand why progressions work, as in why does V resolve nicely into I, why do some chords lead nicely into others (something about voice leading im assuming?), how to properly use inversions, etc.

There's definitely some theoretical aspect here that I don't know that'd help me get a better idea of what works. From there comes something I could actually practice.
Theory wont help you write better chord progressions though. Its, like you stated, more a method to explain why stuff sounds good, especially explaining how to resolve chords. You will always need your ears and creativity to come up with chords. As for the theory part, there's lots of good (online)-books out there and youtube tutorials. I just bought a dutch theory book for piano which explained theory when i started piano but there's probably similar books in english. However, i cannot stress enough that knowing theory will not help you magically make more complex progressions.

I disagree with the first part of this. Learning theory DOES help you write better chord progressions. Yes you're still going to need your ears and creativity to come up with chords. If you hear a chord progression in a song you like at least with music theory you can "analyze" and find out your taste. You can tell yourself "Oh the reason why I like this chord progression is because of the borrowed chord in bar 5". From that point on you can incorporate that into your own music.

With an understanding of music theory you can tell yourself "I feel like writing a classic armin van buuren/gaia chord progression" and then intuitively understand the notes you would have to choose in order to get that sound. You may base your chord progression off of a harmonic minor scale since that #7 really gives you that classical feel.

Not only that but once you learn diatonic harmony you are no longer just "guessing" from a set of 12 notes. All of a sudden you understand that you can base your chords off of scales and assign them numbers 1-7. This is MUCH easier than just choosing from a bunch of 12 random notes and hoping they work well together.

With voice leading you'll learn how to use inversions in order help resolve the chords in a way that is pleasing to the ear. You'll understand that if you have a melody in harmonic minor that's resting on the #7 then no matter what it wants to resolve and you should resolve it. You can break this rule if you want and that's important to. Knowing the rules that way you can break them when you want to be unique.

Maybe you really like the sound of seventh chords but you don't know what they're called so you never really learn to utilize them to their full potential. With theory you understand that there are Maj7 Min7 Dim7 Dom7,and Aug7 chords and you can play with them all relative to the scale to help you come up with chord progressions that suit your taste.

I'm done with my rant. I can come up with a list of reasons and ways that learning theory helps you write better chord progressions. Just PM me OP.
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cryophonik

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2016, 07:15:09 pm »
I disagree with the first part of this. Learning theory DOES help you write better chord progressions. Yes you're still going to need your ears and creativity to come up with chords.

Allow me to contradict my earlier post a bit and say that, yes, I agree with this - knowing your music theory can help you come up with better progressions because it gives you bigger toolbox to work with and a better understanding of why some chord progressions work so well in a certain context, while others don't.  My point above was actually making the leap from chord progressions to creation of a song.  Knowing your theory certainly can eliminate a lot of trial and error.  And, while some people may try to equate minimizing trial and error with discouraging experimentation, I don't think that it works out that way in practice.  Even if it does a little bit, the benefits of having more creative options outweighs the likelihood that someone would stop finding happy accidents just because they don't try the obviously bad options (if that makes sense).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 07:17:39 pm by cryophonik »
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iamtesko

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2016, 04:11:46 am »
@Lydian and Cryophonic, thank you! This is what I was talking about, and I should have rephrased "complex". I'm not talking like crazy extensions and voicings but rather I should have said "less boring" haha.

Here's some progressions I pulled from my songs, I added some comments on the track just breaking down what I did roughly, what I like and where I feel they're lacking.
https://soundcloud.com/iamtesko/progressions/s-jJCtv

As far as other artist's progressions that I like:

https://soundcloud.com/nghtmre/its-alright-remix

I transcribed this one into midi before and these were my findings:
8 bars long
Key of Bm
no fifths besides in the first chord which is just root and fifth, third intervals give these chords their feel. The roots of the chords ascend diatonically through the scale until the drop before the last chord in the sequence. Every chord before this is a buildup to this mini-tension/resolution (if you can call it that).

These chords are C#m - A - Bm. C# to A is a major third down, A to B is major second up. Also A is the seventh chord of the scale which resolves nicely to the "home" chord B. Cryophonik, I see what you mean here by ascending by seconds/fourths and descending by thirds/fifths. I'm going to stay conscious of this now.

Also worth noting, the chords generally hit on offbeats which keeps the groove going and makes the last chord, which hits on the first beat of the bar, hit way way more stronger.

Next Progression, Jon Hopkin's Abandon is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Took some time to deconstruct it and here's what I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc1IkYwKCtM

I used this site which gave me the chords. Normally I'd figure it out by ear but this would be lengthier than I have the time to do today

https://chordify.net/chords/jon-hopkins-abandon-window-immunity-album-version-jack-somerset?transpose=0

This one is also in the key of B major I believe. Just for my own convenience, chords of B are:
B C#min D#min Emaj F#maj G#min Adim

The progression is
B D#m F# C# F# Abm
B F# C# F#
B F# D#m
I'll keep it at that as it's super long

but looking at the rest of it, yeah I'm finding that trick to be true here as well but I wouldn't have guessed it based on the previous analysis considering how much more emotional this one is. I'm guessing that comes from the fact that its in a major key. I know the minor = sad, major = happy idea doesn't always hold true but I guess I'm just so used to writing in minor keys that I never would have figured it might be in a major key. It could be possible that it's in it's relative minor but the B major chord does seem to be the "home" chord here.

Got a bit in depth there but I felt it was worth sharing. Those are two progressions that have stood out to me that I can recall right now.

My background is in melodic/progressive metal music so I know how to construct a bunch of "complex" chords on the fretboard and theoretically but I'm finding even when I'm able to translate it in the piano roll I can't make anything useable, as in a sensible progression that leads somewhere. I love the "spacey" feel of second intervals and ninths but I'm finding that harder to implement in the electronic world. Even using sixths and sevenths begins to sound cliche future bass when used on every chord.

So I suppose a more concise question would be, are there any resources that you guys know that would help me get a better understanding of how to use these extended chords more "methodically" (i guess, stuck to find the right word here) and anywhere where I can learn more on voice leading! I know my knowledge is definitely lacking in that department. Lastly, is there anything I should be taking note of in the future that I didn't note in these deconstructions here that would be a significant factor in the feel of a progression?

Again thanks for your guys' help, this is what I was looking for!

Lydian

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 10:48:18 am »
Chord progression #1 - I hear what you’re saying when you said you omit the fifth of the chord. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact when it comes to part writing it was always a guideline that if you were going to omit any note of any chord to let it be the fifth. The reason why is because like you said the third of the chord has more of a distinct push/pull to them. The third of the chord is what determines whether or not the chord is going to be major or minor. What I hear is a chord progression in E minor. It goes like this in terms of roman numeral analysis i>v>VI.

Eminor>Bminor 1st inversion> Cmaj7omit5

One thing that you need to keep in mind however is that although you’re using only a two note chord you aren’t really omitting the fifth and here is the reason why. The melody that you’re playing actually covers the “fifth” of the chord. Even if it’s a different instrument you shouldn’t think of melody as being separate from harmony because essentially they coexist together. This is something that you learn when dealing with part writing which I won’t get into at this very moment. Listen to the first melody note that begins at the beginning of the bar/chord and notice how it actually covers the “5th” of that e minor chord.

Basically think of it like this…

Every time you change a chord the first note of the melody also counts as part of the harmony if it plays at the same time as the chord change.

You also mentioned that you think that hearing it 4-8 times in a row gets stale after awhile. You’re correct and the reason why it gets stale is because at slower tempos it takes a longer amount of time for the chords to change. What you composed is a 4 bar loop which you can get away with if you add more elements into the song to help develop the arrangement. In this case I can’t tell what you did with the rest of the arrangement because you only included twelve seconds of the track. I CAN tell you this though. If you want to learn how to make your chord progressions sound less stale you must master the art of variation. Now how do you create variation?

You create variation by making things sound less symmetrical. If you only change the chord once every bar try changing it twice in one bar and once in the next. If your chord progressions are only 4 bars long then try making them 8/16 bars long instead to create more variation. Your chord progression only contains three chords and yet Jon Hopkins has at least 8-9 in his. That is why you don’t sound like John Hopkins. If you wanna loop an 8 bar chord progression then maybe add some variation in the second repetition by altering the chords a bit. Change the notes in the upper, inner, or lower voices it doesn’t matter.

There are so many ways to create variation but you aren’t going to come across them if you don’t experiment on your own. Some people dislike variation and would rather have things sound much more symmetrical. It’s a matter of taste. You need to identify your taste and zoom in on every little detail until you’re able to find out just how much symmetry you like in your music.

There are literally a limitless amount of possibilities you can create when it comes to chord progressions. Look at what I did to yours. The first 11 seconds is your loop. Everything else onwards are possible variations Granted these are lazy examples but I think it helps serve the point.

https://soundcloud.com/dannystestaccount/variations

If you truly do have a background in melodic/progressive metal then I don’t think I need to explain to you what the difference between a complex chord and a simple chord. Just keep this in mind. Complex chords are HARDER to work with because instead of working with 3 voices (triad) you’re working with 5 (Extended chords) If you don’t need how to voicelead then turning these “complex” chords into great chord progressions is going to be a long process of trial and error.

Besides, after listening to your chord progressions I’m more convinced that the changes you’re looking for has much more to do with making them longer than more complex. In the examples you showed me like the john hopkins song I didn’t hear a ton of extended chords. What I heard was clever voice leading and that’s what you should look into as well.

As far as resources go I’ll admit there aren’t a lot of good ones out there. The way that I learned it is by bugging the users in the musician talks section of the ultimate guitar forum a few years ago. I met a user who was kind enough to teach me. I’d like to pay that forward here.

I can show you a methodical process to writing chord progressions. A forum isn’t the place for it however. As far as things you should be taking note of just reread the first half of this post. If you’d like to learn more just PM me your Skype and I’d be happy to get deeper. Otherwise I hope you found this post to be of some use
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Matt Viper

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2016, 01:25:23 pm »
- Use all chords possible!
- Have you heard of hooktheory? In theorytab section you can analyze your fav songs if they are there
- What I like to do in FL Studio is to write in piano roll all the chords I`d like to use and use playback instead of write to play them in various progressions and see which one I like the best
Cheers!

iamtesko

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2016, 11:04:30 pm »
@Lydian thanks for all that. I'd definitely be down to skype if you have some time, sent you a pm!

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2016, 08:45:50 am »
What I found to be really helpfull was the tl;dr version of music theory, a (free) pdf showing a big range of whats possible with knowledge of music theory.
It's defenitly a look worth it : https://gumroad.com/l/tldrmusic#

iamtesko

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Re: How to write better/more complex chord progressions
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2016, 06:11:08 pm »
What I found to be really helpfull was the tl;dr version of music theory, a (free) pdf showing a big range of whats possible with knowledge of music theory.
It's defenitly a look worth it : https://gumroad.com/l/tldrmusic#

skimmed through this but ill give it another read, thanks!