Author Topic: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track  (Read 13321 times)

Bertie South

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Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« on: January 15, 2016, 08:40:43 pm »
I always kind of assumed that you should only use pan and volume automation for effects and fade ins/outs. I figured doing otherwise messes with the balance of your mix. But I've never seen anybody say anything about this.

Let's say you have an arpeggio that sounds balanced in the build-up of your track. But later on, when there's much more going on, it sounds too quiet. My assumption is you would fix this with EQing or sidechaining (assuming the problem isn't a frequency clash), or maybe even modulate it differently so that it has more presence. But to what extent is it ok to change the volume or panning of something so that it sits right in different parts of a mix?

Thanks peeps.
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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 08:55:07 pm »
I always kind of assumed that you should only use pan and volume automation for effects and fade ins/outs. I figured doing otherwise messes with the balance of your mix. But I've never seen anybody say anything about this.

I was surprised to find that so many professionals use volume automation for vocals, guitars, drums, etc. on top of the standard compression and limiting techniques. Panning is a little less surprising, since I hear that quite a bit in music, especially in EDM (where a synth or arp is panned differently to accent it during certain parts).

Keep in mind that a song is linear and tells a story too. We're not talking about a 5 second loop here, but a movement over time, so these tricks are sometimes necessary.
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Bertie South

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 09:00:35 pm »
^ Interesting. I figure it's something you have to be careful with because if you used it too often you would end up noticeably bumping the overall volume of your track. Thanks for the tip!
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lyteside

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 09:14:26 pm »
^ Interesting. I figure it's something you have to be careful with because if you used it too often you would end up noticeably bumping the overall volume of your track. Thanks for the tip!

for sure. What gets crazy is that its not just sections that will get automated, but small phrases too (especially in the vocal world)!

Using parallel compressions is one way to automate volume without it getting too cray cray, since the volume your raising would come from a channel that's already pretty squashed (without a lot of dynamics fluctuating back n' forth).
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Marrow Machines

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 10:32:42 pm »
That happens to me a few times in the past, and now it's becoming more common as i do more volume automation and consider it.

There's nothing wrong with changing it's balance in the mix as the song evolves. I would even suggest rendering out a few clips of that sound and depending on how it fits in the mix, should have different settings.

The point is this, you have to make things fit and work. You gotta solve the problem as a sound engineer.
There's several ways to skin a cat, but this concept you're asking about is the beginning of the infinite nature of many concepts that lead to true self expression. It's way past the basics and fundamentals. Which is probably why it's not common.

Basically, make it sound good at the problem areas because it's part of the mix. It may require duplication, rendering, volume automation/settings, eq automation/settings, or not even have it in that spot.

I asked my music teacher about this sort of question, and he basically said "That's up to you man, it's taste." He couldn't give me any more "technical" advice because that's where your problem solving skills and taste as a producer/engineer start. That's where the real fun begins.
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Artless Venture

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 12:02:48 pm »
There's nothing wrong with this to me...

I like to play with the general stereo with as the track progresses. Like for example the verse stays more centered and in the chorus it opens up. I do this on with stereo widening plug-ins on individual tracks as well as during mastering, you just have to be careful not to mess up your mono compatibility.

As far as volume goes, I try to find the one setting that works best during all parts, just if it is absolutely necessary I automate this as well, but usually no more than 3 db... If I think about it now I am even wondering why only this much - wouldn't it just make a more dynamic track (=more depth/emotion)? It probably depends on the instrument that is used - say you have a synthesizer playing a melody, with no velocity change and just consistent volume: I wouldn't hold myself back to automate this instead of an well recorded piano, where there is a lot more dynamics going on...

These are my thoughts, I hope this was helpful for you.
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FarleyCZ

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 12:30:05 pm »
Oh, there is this funny piece of advice I heard in one episode of Pensado's Place: "Of course faders need to move. That's the reason why "to mix" is a verb."

...if you study how mixing was done before digital age, you find out that they had this big analogue mixing consoles with usually a 4 band eq, simple compressor and panning on each channel. Nothing more. They needed to get away with it. Also, they needed to record it to tape. No undos, no saving etc... So they got in the room with the musicians and they (not kidding) rehersed the mix as the band was playing. They took notes over fader volume changes they needed to do throughout the song and eventually made a final version on the last take.

Another example: Professional studios still do what's called "riding a vocal" which means to record an automation over vocal to emphasize good parts and supress unwanted ones. (Essentially do what compressor would do, but manually, so you can decide over each detail of the performance yourself.)

So yeah, volume automation something you shouldn't fear. I get that with tons of layers and complex structures, achieving that balance is prescious, but that shouldn't scare you off when some automation is needed.

Pan is difficult. I'm usually not a fan long term pan change (quick effects are ok), but that's subjective. It might work for you. :)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:35:03 pm by FarleyCZ »
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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 01:30:00 pm »
I watched this video with steve duda last night and he was saying how the faders are the most (by a long shot) important part of mixing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjvrHOARC00

Theres the video, i watched all three parts and instantly learnt stuff that improved my mix on a wip instantly.

FarleyCZ

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 01:55:22 pm »
I watched this video with steve duda last night and he was saying how the faders are the most (by a long shot) important part of mixing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjvrHOARC00

Theres the video, i watched all three parts and instantly learnt stuff that improved my mix on a wip instantly.
Is "producer crush" a thing? Because if is, I do have it for Steve Duda. ;D That sentense about outmixing students without external plugins ... this should be carved into a stone! ...especially on forums like this where everyone's searching for all that "magic plugins" that make their mixes professional. There. Are. Not. Any.

Sombody invite this guy on this forum.
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kiiskamusic

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2016, 02:32:15 pm »
But to what extent is it ok to change the volume or panning of something so that it sits right in different parts of a mix?

Thanks peeps.

There is no technical answer to this question. It's completly up to your taste and what you think sounds good. That's the thing with creating your OWN music, there is no "extent that is ok" to do something, as long as you like it and you think it sounds good. Ask yourself this question, if someone on this forum answered your question in a way that you didnt think sounded good at the end of the day, would you still implement their advice just because they backed it up "technically". I hope the answer would be no. My point is there are no rules when it comes to things like this. Do what feels right, the music is yours anyway. It seems to me like your creating restrictions for yourself, and not allowing your music to be whatever you want it to be. And thats important. Just my two cents :)

Gabe D

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 06:12:59 pm »
I use volume automation on just about every track. I feel like I have more control over the whole song to make certain parts stand out over others at certain times. It gets tedious as hell though if you ever have to move all of them.
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Bertie South

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 07:27:24 pm »


It gets tedious as hell though if you ever have to move all of them.
Doesn't it!


I like what Logic has done with splitting automation into absolute and relative, but it's still not a perfect solution.
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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 11:04:26 pm »


It gets tedious as hell though if you ever have to move all of them.
Doesn't it!


I like what Logic has done with splitting automation into absolute and relative, but it's still not a perfect solution.

What drives me crazy in Ableton, and maybe Im doing it wrong, but when you select a group of automations to move, it doesnt do them precisely. If all are on an even db, say -10db and others at -15dn & -12db on one track, when I move them they adjust weird. I want it to move them all 5db or whatever and they will be from say -10db to -14.33 instead of going from -10db to -15db. Drives me nuts.
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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 11:34:39 pm »
To fine tune automations, hold down the Command button when dragging the break points.

To contribute to the subject of the thread: I think from a classical mixing perspective, there is nothing wrong with having your sounds stick to one place in the stereo field. There are other things you can do to make your song more dynamic and moving - playing with reverbs and filters, melodic shifts, and new instrumentation, for example. But if it sounds better when you move things, do it!

I have a pretty strict rule of avoiding the mixer's volume/pan for my primary automations, because I like to use those to... well, mix! I'm pretty sure every DAW has some sort of pan/balance utility plugin (Fruity Balance in FL Studio, Utility in Ableton, Gain in Logic) that lets you automate the parameters. So I try to set a "default" position, and if I feel the track needs any pan/volume automation I'll use the plugin more often than the main fader or pan pots.

Bertie South

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Re: Sticking to one main volume/pan position per track
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 11:56:03 am »

What drives me crazy in Ableton, and maybe Im doing it wrong, but when you select a group of automations to move, it doesnt do them precisely. If all are on an even db, say -10db and others at -15dn & -12db on one track, when I move them they adjust weird. I want it to move them all 5db or whatever and they will be from say -10db to -14.33 instead of going from -10db to -15db. Drives me nuts.
I've been wondering about scaling volumes at different levels and how DAWs handle this.


To use an extreme example, imagine you have an automated fade from -36dB to -30dB. That's a pretty subtle difference. If you select the two automation points and drag the -30dB point up to 0dB, depending on how your DAW handles it the other point will now be at -6dB (this is what Logic does anyway). -6dB to 0dB is a BIG difference, so you can't alter the overall volume of the track without affecting its balance. It *might* be that Ableton is actually adjusting your automation to compensate for this difference. I don't know the maths of it though (maybe somebody does?)
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