Author Topic: [TL;DR] Musicianship  (Read 18685 times)

auvic

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[TL;DR] Musicianship
« on: January 14, 2016, 04:36:07 pm »
Be warned: This thread is TL;DR, but if anything, please read the brief summary in the introduction below.

This thread is ultimately about how we, as musicians, write our music. I want to delve into the reasons why we write the way and things we do, why they sound they way they do, why we like the music we listen to, and why we hate the music we hate. I prefer this thread to become a discussion (although it's TL;DR so... well whatever).

Okay.

One's musicianship is how I like to define the intangible, deeply buried aspects of a person's influence and decisions they make when they have anything to do with music... whether they perform, write, arrange, compose, analyze, or simply enjoy. I wrap it up simply with this: what you like is what you are.

My natural tendency to the Dorian Mode seemed to be a strange phenomenon. I first discovered this mode when I was first writing music, and I discovered that there was more to than just the Natural Minor and Major keys. I didn't know it was called Dorian then, nor did I know what Modes were, but I found it when I was studying Hans Zimmer's Jack Sparrow, a piece to the score of Pirates of the Caribbean, Dead Man's Chest.

Soon, I started writing most of my music in Dorian. A Minor Key is awesome--it can be incredibly energetic, blissfully melancholic, soulfully moving, or just downright awesome. The Dorian's favor of the Natural 6 over the Natural Minor's flat 6 just makes everything incredibly brighter; what was once blissfully melancholic is now bright and hopeful. For example, the 2-chord progression, I-7 IV-7 in Natural Minor is melancholic. But in Dorian, the I-7 IV7 progression provokes a much more hopeful, composed feel. With the right instrumentation and type of performance, it can even be energetic, but the sole feel will stay. The bright change of the Natural 6 is powerful yet not conflicting with the minor-y relationship between the Natural 1 and the Flat 3, still giving that minor feel.

A friend of mine is an amazing guitarist. His favorite thing is the modal interchange of the I- chord to simply Imaj. A chord progression he would often play over was Emaj, Cmaj, then Dmaj. The Emaj here would be the obvious borrow from the parallel Major Key. But my question would be... why? Now, I love this chord progression. You can modify it a billion ways to get different things--you can tailor it to something specific, as with anything, but it's not my favorite. Why is it his favorite and not mine? What does he see in it that I don't? Unfortunately, I don't know him that well to formulate an answer, let alone a theory.

If I hear a song that was pleasant to the ears but provoked nothing at all, those songs will never become classics to me, which is not something I forced but something I noticed. There are songs that dig deep--deeper into your mind and soul and change you from within--you don't need me to tell you that. And it's clear that, although some (not all) music have things to say, it's more or less subjective, that our interpretation of a certain piece of music is the final form of the influence... whether or not the message was intended by the artist who created the work.

Interpretation also happens outside of music--in all art. Paintings can be interpreted in many different ways, but the people who appreciate those works will choose either the most logical interpretation or their favorite, and their favorite will probably relate to themselves or what they believe in. This happens in movies, poems, novels, music--anything that can be interpreted whether it be a symbol, a metaphor, a character's actions, or the choice of chords.

I tend to have a habit of judging those who say the phrase, 'if it sounds good to you, then that's all it matters.' I absolutely despise this line, because whoever follows this to me don't seem like any kind of patron of art, but rather just a consumer that takes art based on face value. Why is modern Pop so popular? It's no secret that most Pop music is tailored to appeal to the masses, and it's no secret that every single aspect--the sound design, the production, the composition, the arrangement--is all tailored to appeal to the listener instantly... most don't last long.

This is why I don't particularly enjoy modern Pop, because to me, it says nothing. It doesn't relate to me. Why is it that people enjoy dance music in the right place and time? Obviously that's what the music is about, that's what the music says... what it talks about--getting drunk, getting high, getting money, having sex, losing control, partying, having fun now and escaping the consequences--I'm not particularly that type of person. Don't get me wrong, I like alcohol, sex, and parties (I don't really care for money unfortunately) perhaps as much as the next person, but when it comes to expressing or participating those aspects in my life, the expressive, explicit way the music is portrayed doesn't appeal to me. The connotations of Pop that is played in clubs comes loss of control in favor of feeling good, among others... and especially control--losing it gives me anxiety. I am a control freak.

I know the way I said it seems negative and critical of Pop, but as we've established, it's also the subjective interpretation of the person listening to it... and of course, not disregarding the purpose of the music either. But this is why I find that I don't really click with people that solely only listen to Pop that is tailored solely for marketing purposes. What you like is what you are, and what you listen to define your values. (P.S. I do have my criticisms within the Pop industry, as we all do, as well as other genres).

Why is it that every person that likes modern Hip-Hop (that talks about drugs, sex, money, and crime) that I've met so far are complete tools? Every guy I've met that listens to this kind of music has been overcompensating with the alpha male attitude, talking about forcefully expressing their manhood and establishing their apparent dominance, sexually stereotyping women, oversensitive and unable to have a sense of humor, unable to pick up certain social clues, attempting to justify their gluttony of excessive consumption of drugs and alcohol, and undermining others in favor of petty greed. I'm sure there is someone out there that listens to this type of music but must be altruistic, angelic saints... or are there? If there are, I'd really like to know why they listen to that music and why they are the way that they are. I'm sure some of you may know people like this. But sadly, I haven't met a single one. Yet. But I have met people that listen to a different breed of Hip-Hop, and the rap seems to talk about ideas, tell stories, explain perspectives and hardships, and pulling through... and I've worked with them and they have great ideas. I've gotten drunk with them and they really get into discussing about music and what they express through it, passionately. Ultimately it's the messages behind the genre. A genre is just a classification... it doesn't necessarily define anything of value.

A lot of people even say 'everything has been done already.' I highly, extremely disagree. What is the hell is everything? There is a video that mathematically broke down if we will ever run out of new melodies, that there is a finite number of tones, and filtering out melodies that our brains don't have a tendency to like. But there are so many aspects that influence our liking of music, such as context, sound design and instrumentation, who wrote it, what it's about, composition, arrangement, rhythm, performance, external stimulus, emotional provocation, repetition, recycling of same melodies in different ways--the list goes on and on and on, and makes the answer an honest no. Even in the piano performance world, the interpretation of a certain classical piece differentiates every performer of how they perform that certain piece. Having that said, there is always more than just face value to music or any art to that matter, that 'if it sounds good to you, then that's all that matters' is downright, repulsively negligent and ignorant... SO FUCK THAT.

I was in Boston a year ago, going to school there. One time I entered a taxi, and the driver asked me straight away whether I was planning to use cash or card. I didn't have any cash on me, so I said, "I'm going to use my card."
"You Americans are so lazy," he said.
"What?"
"You know the card companies take 7% off every transaction?"
"Complaining about getting less money just because I use a card seems lazy to me."
And after a while...
"So, where do you go to school?"
"Berklee."
"Music?"
"Yeah."
"What kind of music?"
"Electronic."
"Electronic?" He spews, "That music is ruining the real music, man."
Needless to say, he didn't receive any tip.

So, the realism is, not too many care. Most people don't love music, they like it. That was the whole point of this little anecdote. Most consumers may enjoy a song in its entirety, but will not have a burning passion for music and search for a deeper understanding of why they like it--that's why they're not musicians. It may not be always 'it sounds good, that's why I like it,' and may go a little deeper than that, but most people don't go deep enough. They can't be bothered. Same thing with me--I don't analyze certain art forms too much, such as paintings from the Renaissance Era or books Ayn Rand wrote (I hate Ayn Rand) simply because I don't necessarily love them. It's a shame, but it's reality.

I understand the point of this post is easy to miss. It's not just about establishing a deeper appreciation for music, but how this affects us as musicians--how these things influence our understanding, interpretation, and most importantly, expression of music... others and our own.

I'm sure most people like it fine not to analyze too much, but it's not a bloody headache like it seems when I explain it. It's just something I've grown to notice when I listen to music or write--that there is always a reason why I like something. It's the same thing where you can look at someone and their fashion and sort of assume what kind of person they are or what they might like. To me, a world where the music I listen to has nothing to say and just 'sounds pleasant' is a fucking boring, monochrome, and soulless world.

But this is an issue I constantly find in others' music. A lot of music I hear says nothing--and I'll ask the writer what it's about, and usually there is no answer, nor is it skillfully expressed, or it's usually just an excuse to "verify the integrity of their musicianship." And the truth is, 99.9999% of the music I hear from peers is never something I'll ever come back to listen to. It doesn't become a classic for me. It usually never becomes something I admire or idolize within, nor is it something I truly regard as intuitive, creative, or beautiful.

But it doesn't need to be complex! A song can be ultimately beautiful even if the meaning is extremely simple. There have been poems about the gracefulness of a lion and the intricate, social precedent of its tribe--there have been poems about the gazing beauty of the infinite universe and the drifting, everchanging planets, stars, and ethereal gases that roam the galaxies... but there have also been poems about ice cream--just plain fucking vanilla ice cream and how much the writer loves it, written beautifully that can make you crave for it. Simple, but beautiful. Poems have something to say. Books have something to say. Whatever art form--art is expression. Doesn't it just make it a million times better when a piece of work can provoke your thoughts and tickle your brain, even if it's just a little bit? Don't you enjoy that much more?

I'm sure that this doesn't bother you as much as it does me, and that's okay. And please don't think of me as pompous--I'm not trying to say that my music is better or worse, nor am I a better person for liking a certain type of music over others--absolutely not... my music is terrible. My only goal is to explain the concept that the music we listen to and write define us, and if we are to let it define us, let us grow as artistically intellectual musicians, that everything is absolutely not fucking done and we can revolutionize music if we wanted to... and for us to reach that deep of a level, we can't listen to things and take them for just face value.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 04:38:41 pm by auvic »

Wontolla

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 04:44:20 pm »
A lot of music I hear says nothing--and I'll ask the writer what it's about, and usually there is no answer, nor is it skillfully expressed, or it's usually just an excuse to "verify the integrity of their musicianship." And the truth is, 99.9999% of the music I hear from peers is never something I'll ever come back to listen to. It doesn't become a classic for me. It usually never becomes something I admire or idolize within, nor is it something I truly regard as intuitive, creative, or beautiful.

I've spent the last two years trying to figure out how to say this without coming off as an "elitist" or something like that. Thank you.

Some thoughts:
*Dorian minor is great for making "triumphant" tracks. Other than Hans Zimmer, Ensiferum loves to use it, and all their songs are about vikings beating people up, enough said.
*There's definitely a place for experimenting, and looking for unusual elements like non-diatonic scales or new sounds or w/e. If you want to use elements in a track to express something, it helps if those elements are already there for you to play with.
*On the other hand, there are plenty of those elements out there already, waiting to be used in new ways. That's why I keep telling new producers to listen to more non-EDM music.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 05:06:41 pm by Wontolla »

Final Kindgom

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 07:08:02 pm »
I tend to have a habit of judging those who say the phrase, 'if it sounds good to you, then that's all it matters.'

Those who like music: If it sounds good, that's all that matters.
Those who love music: If it sounds good and makes you feel something, that's all that matters.

The average music listener doesn't care for deep interpretation or why a chord progression sounds pleasant. That's probably why they love Pop. They don't care for what's behind it. It's not about the art. Same thing about the Gangsta/Hardcore Rap genre (I would distance this from Hip Hop a bit, as the culture rose up out of a need for unity and peace, not as a means of promoting shitty themes such as hypermasculinity, oversexualing women, etc). It's not about the camaraderie amongst your fellow brothers and sisters, its just a bunch of noise screaming "Fuck bitches, get money, I'm the best, I'll kill you if I see you on the street, etc". The words crafted to spew this nonsense take away from the actual beat that are in some cases really good. Any potential artistry is lost due to the violent, fucked up nature of the genre.

However, I find a lot of the offspring from most genres are where the artistry and musicianship can. Because they aren't consumed by the masses, there's more room to be you, tell your story, and let people feel who you are.

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 08:22:29 am »
hmmm there's a lot that i agree with here and some that i don't.

i don't think it's fair to say that Pop music is this always corporate thing made for the masses (i know you said most pop). first of all, every so often i hear 'curveball' pop tracks on the radio that make me think "wow this is a bold move for people to consume in mass". you know them when you hear them because they don't sound so cookie cutter and formulaic (either in production, vocal processing, lyrical content, etc). i could give examples if you want... secondly, if a truly creative individual becomes a pop sensation you can't simply discredit their rise or their future works based on the fact that they're being listened to by millions. just wanted to make that clear to start off.

i've always liked the notion that songs i LOVE might do absolutely nothing for other people. i think it's really interesting and a cool reflection on our different influences. but when the magic happens to me is when i discover that my friends love the same artist or song as i do. and it doesn't have to be this crazy underground artist either! it can be a mainstream thing and that's beautiful too! i love the social aspect of music and if one song happens to bring millions together then that's kind of a miracle in and of itself--even if the track isn't deep as we conventionally think, it's serving this very specific purpose which i feel is necessary.

there will always be counterculture and i think that's healthy to a degree. but i think denying enjoyment of something because of popularity is silly. people talk about 'guilty pleasures'... no need for the guilt! it's okay to both enjoy a pop track and also get into the subtle artistry of new, creative, underground music. these aren't mutually exclusive it's just that one may feel safe, predictable, and social while the other one speaks to a deeper part of you.

it's late and i'm not sure this post is completely cohesive but i wanted to mention quickly that, of course, nobody works in a vacuum and i feel that almost everything is borrowed. chords, melodies, rhythms, effects--to me the most successful artists are the ones that capture a relevant spirit or mood with a collage of borrowed elements (which can sometimes feel COMPLETELY novel...even if you zoom out and still hear a 12 tone scale, familiar instrumentation, etc).

as artists we should strive to look forward and be novel, but i never feel the urge to deny what i like just for the sake of avoiding copying people.

great post @auvic i love that you're getting deep into it here and would love to continue the discussion hope this doesn't seem overly adversarial

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 09:55:54 am »
@auvic: OT, but your music is awesome, btw. :)

I get what your'e saying and agree a lot. I have similar bias, but in my case it's against out-of key notes. Unless it's very well incorporated into the progression (speaking about Pirates Of Carrbiean? :) ) I can tell it's there and don't like it for some reason. Threre are whole music styles based on harmonic modulation and switching between scales I jus't canť force myself to like. Dunno why. So I totally agree on "If it sound's goot, it's good." saying being kinda wrong. I was illustrating that in a different thread lately on example of my otherwise really good friend who considers Coldplay's music as having no emotion at all, which I can't dissagree with more. Why is that? Who the hell knows. :)

Also I hear you about the message. Loved that example about hip hop. I experience the same thing. I don't get this alfa-male ego driven hip hop at all. ...a different friend tried to tell me one time it's ment sarcastically. Right... But then you can find rap that talks about ideas, stories, rap with actuall message which is in my eyes pure gold. ...but not so popular for some reason.

Sometimes, when people try to define art, they throw in this quote (can't remember the author): Piece of art is when it has no other purpose than it's own existence. ...interesting quote but in my opinion biggest bull**it anyone said about art ever. Art, especially music, can inspire you, educate you, make you feel better. Some songs can even save lifes. It's ALL about that message in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 10:06:57 am by FarleyCZ »
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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 11:34:38 am »
This is an issue I have been feeling pretty much since I first started listening to music.

I always thought that there was some objectively best piece of music, but I could never find it. I would ask everyone I could what their favorite song was, most of the time getting vague responses that weren't very confident, or getting really certain responses that I found just weird and not good sounding at all.

Then one day I found it.

If you care, the song is Soothsayer - Buckethead (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adV8-_hgL4g) and at the time it completely shook me. I could listen to it over and over and every single time it spoke to me more and more. I was really, really into fast guitar playing at the time so naturally the first thing that caught my attention was the solo, but even still, every single god damn second of the song hit me in all the right places.

So, naturally I decided I would proudly go start telling everyone I knew that I'd finally found it: the big one, the holy grail of all music.

People's reactions were not even close to what I expected. More than half of the people I'd tried showing it to either stopped listening within 2 minutes or actually asked me to change the song to something else. They just couldn't get into it, couldn't feel it.

I always just assumed it to be their loss, and continued listening to it all the time late at night alone in my room, analyzing it as hard as I possibly could.

Then way later (I mean literally years later) an interesting thing happened. I was hanging out with some friends and a couple people I had just met, all hotboxing a car together. We were all listening to some Biggie Smalls, when one of the people I'd just met suggested we start freestyling. I'd never even attempted it before, so unfortunately I sat in silence and observed as they played some beats and even songs with lyrics over top and just started rapping. It didn't matter if it made sense or even if they always kept the rhymes up, it was simply an incredibly fun activity to do whilst passing time smoking some pot.

There were a couple awkward moments where they tried to get me to start, and though I could slowly think of rhymes in my head, they simply couldn't come out of my mouth. So, being as I was a young aspiring producer I decided I'd play a couple songs I'd made to see if we could rap over them, after all I had tried emulating some hip hop in some of my songs. The result was a catastrophic "failure".

My songs were intended to be listened to very careful, alone, probably at night. Outside of this context, they simply did not work.

Embarrassed, I gave back the aux cord, and my friend played the song The Motto (you know, the Drake song that pretty much started YOLO back in the day). Obviously I'd heard the song too many times prior, but I'd never heard it in that specific context. Let me tell you something, in the context of four friends getting high in a car freestyling over other people's music, THAT SONG WORKED.

My point behind all of this incoherent rambling is this:

There are a great many different contexts for music to be presented in. What works incredibly well in one context will likely not work in another. The biggest reason why people tend to "not understand how people could like" a certain song is because they do not understand the context in which that song works.



You might not like hip-hop that overglorifies the use of drugs, oversexualizes women, and forcefully shoves the idea of an alpha male mindset, but what if you were that complete tool who really only wants music that makes them feel good and that says what their mind is thinking? They're listening for a different context than someone like you or I who wants to overanalyze the shit out of it and squeeze every amount of deeper meaning we can get.
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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 11:53:56 am »
^ This post is right.
"Earth is round right? Look at it from right angle and you'll be always on top of the world."
...but don't overdo it, because that's called being a d***k.

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 05:42:43 pm »
This thread has a lot of great posts, but I can't help but recoil at some of the elitist and holier-than-thou attitudes that accompany it. Y'all are kinda decrying "Gangsta rap" hip hop and pop music for talking about partying and drugs and sex and alpha male attitudes without even acknowledging the reasons why they would want to talk about that in the first place. Is there similar disdain for the "Have you seen my friend molly?" EDM songs? Why aren't we complaining about Guns N' Roses? Or Cannibal Corpse? They have a song about having sex with a dead baby, which is arguably worse than "On Instagram straight flexin; Popped a molly, I'm sweatin. (Woo!)"

Music is about telling a story. Everyone has a different story they want to tell. Some of those stories are simple, some of those stories are complex. Some of those stories are just titty mags wrapped in black plastic, but sometimes you wanna read about some fantasies and look at some boobies. A lot of that "gangster" stuff came out of the NWA, Biggie, and Tupac eras of hip hop - they related to the life experiences of the artist, as well as a fictional caricature they used to embrace and escape that culture they were a part of. You replace complexity with raw emotion. Sometimes, when you get someone like Kendrick Lamar, you can get both. Even Fetty Wap is displaying a sort of idealized version of the world he lives in.

Sure, you get fakes and posers and all that stuff, but does that mean the writers behind it aren't storytellers too? Different industries approach things different ways. There are pop artists who will pick a songwriter's piece because it really speaks to them, or applies to an emotional state they are going through. They may not have composed the words, but they place their mark on it and use it as a vessel for their own stories and feelings. I mean, watch the music video for Bitch Better Have My Money (warning: violence and nudity) with the knowledge that in 2009, Rihanna sued one of her accountants for giving her bad and misleading advice that caused her to lose millions of dollars.

I agree completely with with AshleysBrother said about context, as well. As producers we spend a lot of time in a room in front of a computer, so the way we digest music is completely foreign to the way most of these other genres are supposed to be consumed. For example, how many of you regularly go to clubs so you can listen to the electronic dance music I'm assuming most of this forum is making? How often are you riding around with a fat subwoofer in your trunk, vibing to some Yeezy? This applies not just to right now, but to how you developed your taste in music in the first place. There are a few videos on SeamlessR's channel where he talks about how you develop your taste in music and in one of his videos he has Savant come on who kind of reiterates the same point:

You like the music you do because it reminds you of all the music that you were subjected to as a kid and all the music that you discovered when you began looking for music on your own - usually the stuff that the people you associate with enjoy or more of the stuff you were subjected to as a kid. That is the sound that you think of as "good". If you don't know what kind of music to make, just go back to the music you listened to when you were younger (13-17 seems to be a primo range) and re-immerse yourself in it. You can get a lot of inspiration from that nostalgia. As a downside, however, the longer you go without exposing yourself to certain kinds of music, the harder it is for you to be able to accept it as "good", because different becomes increasingly bad the older you get thanks to the after-effects of evolutionary adaptation on our brains. In fact, one study says 33 years of age is the cut off point - after that, new music starts to rapidly drop off in popularity. I'm approaching that age really quickly, so I take all forms of music much more openly than I have before - not to mention there is a lot of stuff you can steal from other genres to incorporate into your work.

I actually really enjoy pop music and party rap and all that "ignorant, meaningless" music. I can appreciate the work that has gone into it, I can let myself get lost in the moment and have fun, and I can find a lot of hidden gems. There's nothing wrong with having a lot of intricacies and thought and soul and intent going into your craft, but there's nothing wrong with making music that makes people feel good. There's nothing wrong with someone telling a good story, just because you aren't a fan of the plot.

FarleyCZ

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 06:31:47 pm »
^ This post is also right.

I'll have to admit, my bias against gangsta rap is probably caused by my total inability to identify with their situations. You got me there with NWA example who I kind of did considered out of my taste until I saw the Straight Outta Compton movie recently. ...having said that, still can't imagine what story for example Pitbull tries to tell, but again, that just might be me not being in mr. Worldwide's shoes. ...me having more understanding to Eminem's or Dylan Owen's situations as opposed to anything he was through.

Also absolutely agree about songwriters being storytellers. One day i had TV with a music station on as a background and this One Direction songs came up. Naturally I grabbed the remote to switch the channlel, but ... something got me interested. The song itself was actually pretty solid power ballad. I could totally imagine it sung by some broken sad rocker in some shady room with a cigarette in his hand. So yes. Those songwritters are sometimes really good storytellers selling their stuff for ... eh ... food.

....but again. Now I'm elitistically bashing One Direction. Which is not fair from me, because those girls (and few boys I'd imagine) at the front rows are having time of their lifes. And I guess that's the point at the end, right? It's a boyband concert for them, It might be an Ramesses B's set for me, it might be Guns and Roses played from dusty vinyl for someone else. As far as it makes the listener happy with what they hear, it's all right.

Btw: Didn't know about that 33 y/o cutt of point, but honestly I can see it on some of my friends at 25 already. :D I'm also hoping to not being effected by it. :D
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:23:24 am by FarleyCZ »
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...but don't overdo it, because that's called being a d***k.

auvic

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2016, 11:13:11 pm »
To be clear, I was talking about the more modern, generic pop that is frequently sought after by those with disrespectable values. I am not saying that at all pop, but rather I'm trying to distinguish the negativities of that genre.

And that goes for any genre, disregarding its origins or the stems of its historical source--whether it started out as music with no purpose, anyone can give it one.

And yes, no point in being guilty--like I said, it's personal interpretation and perspective. For example, I've always seen Wolfgang Gartner as the primary example of the level of production I wanted to achieve, and musically I believe, in his own way, he is brilliant. All he listens to is Top 100 Billboard tracks or old-school hip-hop. I don't judge him in any aspect except than what he chooses to do with his own music.

Having all this said, Mussar, I think you've misunderstood the entire point. As I've established, I don't look at a particular genre or a group and judge it, but rather the individual artist that make up a sort of... community, I suppose. Having sex with a dead baby sounds absolutely horrifying, but I don't know the context, nor really the artist. It's not about the content being necessarily being bad or good, but rather there being content in the first place. That's the whole point. The 'decrying' of this certain Pop music that I am saying is that it's surface value--it says absolutely fuck all.

Interestingly enough, I hated music as a child, so I am not subject to a single path of music. I listened to a fuckton of Hollywood Undead growing up as well as a lot of alternative rock, and the phases keep cycling, and in my career, as never stopped cycling.

Just because someone talks about money, fame, or sex doesn't mean it's terrible. It's the context. There is a musician that writes rap that I had the pleasure of talking to for a brief moment, and although his musical approach is a bit naive, his eagerness was admirable. He wrote a certain line that went something like, "I want to put my mother in a Benz." The message wasn't about getting rich and being materialistic, it was about the hardship his family went through and the hope that he put onto himself to achieve a financially stable life for his family.

And no, there is nothing wrong with making music that makes people feel good. As a matter of fact, that, to me, is a wonderful thing. But when your priorities overpass those good values for own selfish gains such as fame, money, and exploitations of the mass, then I have a fucking problem with it. Writing for others and writing for selfishness is sometimes hard to distinguish among many, but it's there.

Now that I've cleared it up for you, there is no elitist and holier-than-thou attitudes here.






FarleyCZ

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2016, 12:08:36 am »
Writing for others and writing for selfishness is sometimes hard to distinguish among many, but it's there.
There is interesting aspect to this thought though. I totally agree with it and in my opinion the music should be about the message. ...but there's this quite common pattern among starting musicians, or really different musicians, who make music that is not appealing to masses. In extreme cases, not appealing to anyone. That leads to discourage. They seek advice and the most common one they get is: "Well screw others, you're doing it for yourself. It's your expression." This kills the music appeal in some people, but strenghten it in others. I kind of hope I don't have it set up that way, but I can understand people who do. To them, speaking about personal success and ego might come natural. I don't like it, but there's the way how it might start without bad intention at the beginning.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:23:59 am by FarleyCZ »
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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2016, 01:07:02 am »
Just reread over everything you wrote and all the judgements you are making on the character of people you do not personally know, and the condescending implications of a statement like "Now that I've cleared it up for you," then tell me if you're really not being elitist and holier-than-thou.

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2016, 03:56:31 am »
TL;DR indeed! I'm going to specifically answer the part about why we hate the music we hate.

I started a spreadsheet with a bunch of bands in it. I started with just my favorite rock bands, and rated various aspects of them (musicianship, originality, earnestness, heaviness, quality of lyrics, etc.) and averaged it all out at the end to come up with a kind of General Musical Exellence Quotient. I tweaked it to come up with weighting systems that I thought were honest (according to which aspects I consider most important) and also yielded scores that I agreed with (i.e. my favorite bands should get higher scores than bands I just sorta like a lot). Then once I was happy with the system, I added bands I don't like very much--but maybe like one or two aspects of--to see how they scored.

I believe that if I kept at this I could eventually predict how much I will like or dislike any given artist within that genre. I could create similar spreadsheets for other genres with similar predictive power. I urge you to try.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 03:58:07 am by Nadav »

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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 04:24:28 pm »

I started a spreadsheet with a bunch of bands in it.
Haha, I love the geekiness of this :D


I'm really interested in why people like the music they like. Sure, the music you get into when you're growing up tends to remain special to you once you get older, but I'm still intrigued by what it is about that particular music that attracts you in the first place. I feel like the music you like is somehow related to personality or psychology, but I wouldn't have any idea why.


Are you sure those things you listed - musicianship, originality etc. - are actually the things that explain why you like the music you like? There's a psychological tendency to come up with an explanation for our feelings when we don't honestly know the deeper reasons behind them. Tight beats seem to be very important in music to me, and I also seem to like a lot of music that's strongly melodic - liquid d'n'b, trance, early east coast hip hop, but also (e.g.) Miike Snow or Tame Impala, even though on the whole I don't like guitar-based music. I dunno just rambling at this point
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Re: [TL;DR] Musicianship
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 05:38:53 am »
Just reread over everything you wrote and all the judgements you are making on the character of people you do not personally know, and the condescending implications of a statement like "Now that I've cleared it up for you," then tell me if you're really not being elitist and holier-than-thou.

These are observations that I have made based on my experiences dealing with people that I do personally have gotten to know and understand. I didn't have any intention of condescension so I apologize if it came across that way, but you seem to be a little more hostile than the rest of the people here with your last two posts, so I urge you to stop. I'm not going to argue with you about such petty things any further.

There is interesting aspect to this thought though. I totally agree with it and in my opinion the music should be about the message. ...but there's this quite common pattern among starting musicians, or really different musicians, who make music that is not appealing to masses. In extreme cases, not appealing to anyone. That leads to discourage. They seek advice and the most common one they get is: "Well screw others, you're doing it for yourself. It's your expression." This kills the music appeal in some people, but strenghten it in others. I kind of hope I don't have it set up that way, but I can understand people who do. To them, speaking about personal success and ego might come natural. I don't like it, but there's the way how it might start without bad intention at the beginning.

What I find is easier to dissect and interpret is replacing music with comedy--particularly stand-up comedy. It is almost the purest form of entertainment because there is just an audience and you--no real tools. It's entertainment--it doesn't work if the entertainer's only audience is himself, or does it? Can he truly have the mindset of "Well screw others, you're doing it for yourself. It's your expression" and have material that works brilliantly with others? It's possible, but we can't help but bring the feedback and inclusion of an audience into the mix, because there is a difference between art and entertainment, but there are so many similarities as well.

But yes, we've all heard success stories of famous artists that wrote about what was important to them and showed the public the more relatable material for recognition. We don't really hear from those who, in our opinion, make great music but is extremely unpopular. I know of one: Robot Love... minimal music. Not many people like it at all, but I personally love his music, and I think it is brilliant in a way. But have you ever met someone who is egotistical and his music is unpopular, but you thought he was brilliant? Why or why not?

TL;DR indeed! I'm going to specifically answer the part about why we hate the music we hate.

I started a spreadsheet with a bunch of bands in it. I started with just my favorite rock bands, and rated various aspects of them (musicianship, originality, earnestness, heaviness, quality of lyrics, etc.) and averaged it all out at the end to come up with a kind of General Musical Exellence Quotient. I tweaked it to come up with weighting systems that I thought were honest (according to which aspects I consider most important) and also yielded scores that I agreed with (i.e. my favorite bands should get higher scores than bands I just sorta like a lot). Then once I was happy with the system, I added bands I don't like very much--but maybe like one or two aspects of--to see how they scored.

I believe that if I kept at this I could eventually predict how much I will like or dislike any given artist within that genre. I could create similar spreadsheets for other genres with similar predictive power. I urge you to try.

I'm not entirely sure if I can do this. It's not a linear ladder of numerical rankings for me, it's 3-dimensional.

I started a spreadsheet with a bunch of bands in it.
Haha, I love the geekiness of this :D


I'm really interested in why people like the music they like. Sure, the music you get into when you're growing up tends to remain special to you once you get older, but I'm still intrigued by what it is about that particular music that attracts you in the first place. I feel like the music you like is somehow related to personality or psychology, but I wouldn't have any idea why.


Are you sure those things you listed - musicianship, originality etc. - are actually the things that explain why you like the music you like? There's a psychological tendency to come up with an explanation for our feelings when we don't honestly know the deeper reasons behind them. Tight beats seem to be very important in music to me, and I also seem to like a lot of music that's strongly melodic - liquid d'n'b, trance, early east coast hip hop, but also (e.g.) Miike Snow or Tame Impala, even though on the whole I don't like guitar-based music. I dunno just rambling at this point

See, that's what I've always observed and wondered. I think I personally love the Dorian mode because... well, the relationship between the 1 and the b3, the quality that gives it the minor sound, is like Star Wars. It's cool, it's awesome, it's dark but interesting, and everyone loves it. The Natural 6 in the Dorian gives it the triumphant feel, which may reflect my personality. How? I may be able to give a few theories, but nothing is ever certain.