Author Topic: Ill Gates tweeted this out  (Read 4213 times)

Marrow Machines

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Josh Huval: Honestly, the guys who are making good art are spending their time making it.

eidolon

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2016, 03:24:55 pm »
this articles makes some good points but imo it also glaringly overlooks things like the systematic inequalities that exist within society. the author makes the assumption that everyone in society has the exact same experience as a white american/UK male growing up in a household where you can devote your teenage years solely to computer programming.

and i say that as someone who *has* come from a similarly privileged background; its not a bad thing that he's had the life has at all, but he doesnt account for how others have lived. and those things arent reasons to not try, by any means, but just straight up ignoring them helps no one. the points about how society judges value based on # of people impacted definitely rings true. he just could use a little bit of nuance, as well.
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Marrow Machines

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 06:04:36 pm »
this articles makes some good points but imo it also glaringly overlooks things like the systematic inequalities that exist within society. the author makes the assumption that everyone in society has the exact same experience as a white american/UK male growing up in a household where you can devote your teenage years solely to computer programming.

and i say that as someone who *has* come from a similarly privileged background; its not a bad thing that he's had the life has at all, but he doesnt account for how others have lived. and those things arent reasons to not try, by any means, but just straight up ignoring them helps no one. the points about how society judges value based on # of people impacted definitely rings true. he just could use a little bit of nuance, as well.


I took something a little different out of it.

I didn't know the author's back ground at all.

It seemed to get the point across to the people who might not have considered life as a competition. Due to the background and sheltering, his audience might be just exactly what he is.

And to be quite frank, the delivery was appropriate for that said audience.

If we were to consider some one outside of that particular demographic, it still helps shape a certain mindset that could potentially be helpful for their success.


The societal implications he might have ignored (if that's what you're speaking about), are almost implied and understood by the reader(such as yourself).

With out going into that topic, I feel he did a pretty decent job of setting the ground work for the article's purpose.


But i agree that his demographic might be biased.

Not sure if this information is practical for folks who don't have certain needs met and have time to think about other things...




Josh Huval: Honestly, the guys who are making good art are spending their time making it.

attila

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 03:11:26 pm »
this articles makes some good points but imo it also glaringly overlooks things like the systematic inequalities that exist within society. the author makes the assumption that everyone in society has the exact same experience as a white american/UK male growing up in a household where you can devote your teenage years solely to computer programming.

and i say that as someone who *has* come from a similarly privileged background; its not a bad thing that he's had the life has at all, but he doesnt account for how others have lived. and those things arent reasons to not try, by any means, but just straight up ignoring them helps no one. the points about how society judges value based on # of people impacted definitely rings true. he just could use a little bit of nuance, as well.

This is the same lame bs underachieving white people say all the time to make themselves feel better about not accomplishing anything.

The truth is that if someone has to have this explained to them, they're not a winner. People who are actually going to make themselves into something not only already know how this works, they're mostly likely working toward it right now.

Generic white/male "privilege" has nothing to do with being successful; in most cases, it's these same coddled individuals who never had the actual privilege of learning hard work.

Mussar

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 03:43:57 pm »
Except white and male privilege is something that we can show demonstrably exists.

People with African American names are almost 50% less likely to be picked for job interviews over people with white names. They have to make 5 more callbacks than a white candidate. They have to spend on average a week longer than a white person does to find a job.

Women earn 79 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as a man, working in the same position, with the same amount of qualifications and job experience.

While both white people and black people smoke marijuana at the same rates, black people are 3.7 times more likely to be arrested.

The only person who talks down to others about not knowing the value of "learning hard work" is the kind of person who thinks that hard work is all you need to make it - probably because they don't understand how many advantages they were personally given to get to their goals, and foolishly think that their personal struggles somehow invalidate that fact.

attila

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 10:13:00 pm »
We're talking about actually being successful, not getting a job. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Marrow Machines

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 01:24:24 am »
We're talking about actually being successful, not getting a job. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

If you don't see the underlining contexts that are associated with growth opportunity and resources, you are the one who is mistaken.

You've already stated your bias and lack of empathy in your quote towards eidolon. therefore, your argument is nullified in your support to the thought of "if you work hard you will be successful." and "if you don't have this disposition naturally you're already a looser."

well, i'll say bullshit.  What makes you think an infant has the skills necessary to do basic elementary level math? or even most other skills at the elementary level?

In your light, we should all be already to do calculus within seconds of vacating the womb.

Why do those statistics matter? because it's exactly what this article is talking about, in which you seem to neglect or ignore (at this point;but what ever makes you sleep).



The only critique that eidolon really had to make was that the man who was writing the article might have been in a better position to extract already existing resources, on top of the fact that he might have been learned well enough to understand where his god damn bread was being buttered.

Aside from the choice of words, i'd agree with eidolon (and my rebut was rather tough to craft, but we're not in disagreement).



Last point, you're just increasing the writers points by saying what you said.
Josh Huval: Honestly, the guys who are making good art are spending their time making it.

attila

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2016, 06:00:40 am »
I have no empathy for people who fail to apply themselves and in return add no value to the earth. Its pure utility. Its aggravating when other people attempt to minimize the opportunity available by either introducing their bias (I'm not successful) or by waging ethical warfare (x group has it harder so they're out of luck). All the article really says is be honest with yourself about how the reality of success and opportunity works. From all of our perspectives this pertains to how its applied to music. In a creative space all those statistics are moot.

Mussar

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2016, 06:31:53 am »
Except we don't live in a "creative space", we live in reality. My art is inspired by the world around me, and the world around me contains unfortunate levels of disparity due to systematic factors. My "creative space" is designed by the truth, and I don't shy away from it. While I'm writing this right now, I can see a man outside my window sleeping on the street. Are you really trying to tell me that he's there because he "failed to apply himself"? Are you really trying to get me to buy that because you're "aggravated" by the truth, that you somehow get to dismiss the indisputable facts of the world at large?

Child, please.

Arktopolis

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2016, 06:53:19 am »
Mussar. Just give the guy a piano! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCguq3hTC2M

If you don't have a spare piano, a kazoo should get him started. If he's got what it takes to be successful.

attila

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2016, 09:51:36 pm »
Except we don't live in a "creative space", we live in reality. My art is inspired by the world around me, and the world around me contains unfortunate levels of disparity due to systematic factors. My "creative space" is designed by the truth, and I don't shy away from it. While I'm writing this right now, I can see a man outside my window sleeping on the street. Are you really trying to tell me that he's there because he "failed to apply himself"? Are you really trying to get me to buy that because you're "aggravated" by the truth, that you somehow get to dismiss the indisputable facts of the world at large?

Child, please.

I don't care about your inspiration. It seems your reality only serves your own insecurities about success, so if you fail you can blame it on "disparity" and the "truth" of how the world works.

And yes, that man (barring medical limitations) is on the street because he failed to provide for himself. Doesn't take any amount of intelligence to figure that out. Are you implying he got there by accident? That he was born on the street and never thought to take care of himself? There are a lot of homeless people in my city, and you know what? The vast majority I've spoken to say they chose to be homeless because they enjoy the freedom. 

Everyone has the same opportunity to make a life for themselves. Whether we get there or not is completely based on the choices we make. It seems you believe the system's rigged, anyone who isn't raised with privilege has next to zero opportunity, and that somehow by pointing out the struggles of those people-which you can in no way sympathize with behind your macbook at a Starbucks-you're on their side. By giving credence to the notion that inequality plays any sort of significant factor in success, you continue to give power to that same thing you claim to be so passionately against. 

Marrow Machines

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2016, 03:27:51 am »
Except we don't live in a "creative space", we live in reality. My art is inspired by the world around me, and the world around me contains unfortunate levels of disparity due to systematic factors. My "creative space" is designed by the truth, and I don't shy away from it. While I'm writing this right now, I can see a man outside my window sleeping on the street. Are you really trying to tell me that he's there because he "failed to apply himself"? Are you really trying to get me to buy that because you're "aggravated" by the truth, that you somehow get to dismiss the indisputable facts of the world at large?

Child, please.

I don't care about your inspiration. It seems your reality only serves your own insecurities about success, so if you fail you can blame it on "disparity" and the "truth" of how the world works.

And yes, that man (barring medical limitations) is on the street because he failed to provide for himself. Doesn't take any amount of intelligence to figure that out. Are you implying he got there by accident? That he was born on the street and never thought to take care of himself? There are a lot of homeless people in my city, and you know what? The vast majority I've spoken to say they chose to be homeless because they enjoy the freedom. 

Everyone has the same opportunity to make a life for themselves. Whether we get there or not is completely based on the choices we make. It seems you believe the system's rigged, anyone who isn't raised with privilege has next to zero opportunity, and that somehow by pointing out the struggles of those people-which you can in no way sympathize with behind your macbook at a Starbucks-you're on their side. By giving credence to the notion that inequality plays any sort of significant factor in success, you continue to give power to that same thing you claim to be so passionately against.

If every one has a choice, then that means they have as much power over you as you have of yourself.

so then your argument is nullified by the fact of the individual's choice.

Josh Huval: Honestly, the guys who are making good art are spending their time making it.

alanisnotcool

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2016, 04:24:02 am »
Everyone has the same opportunity to make a life for themselves.

Very wrong. 

Well, everyone has an opportunity to make a shitty life for themselves, but not everyone has the same opportunities to make a "good" or "successful" life for themselves.

Lydian

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2016, 09:35:58 pm »
who cares
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attila

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Re: Ill Gates tweeted this out
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 11:59:25 pm »
Everyone has the same opportunity to make a life for themselves.

Very wrong. 

Well, everyone has an opportunity to make a shitty life for themselves, but not everyone has the same opportunities to make a "good" or "successful" life for themselves.
You seem to mistake a disadvantage for a handicap. If you believe society truly has handicapped an entire demographic of people, then you've mentally written off their ability to grow beyond it. You're implying that people are where they are due to things beyond their control, which is false. We all have circumstances that influence how our lives begin, but our potential and actions are completely separate from that.