Author Topic: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise  (Read 24775 times)

MEDMAN

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Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« on: January 10, 2016, 03:02:16 pm »
A quick tip using pink noise to leveling your track channels,
was very helpful to me, and being honest my mixes have never been more balanced than the mixes I did after that simple trick.
Peace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsV4mGTLB8s

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2016, 03:08:17 pm »
Woa brilliant, thumbs up man! :D

Babasmas

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2016, 03:27:14 pm »
This is not a bad idea, but it is really not a good one either. If you look at the Pink Noise spectrum he showed. it's boosted on bass. Which is dangerous, first because it could break your ears, then second because it will break your gear. Low frequencies have more power than mid/high.

For example, if a track has too much low, you'll hear perfectly, but if it has too much high, you probably won't notice it or it will be hard.

MEDMAN

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2016, 03:55:35 pm »
This is not a bad idea, but it is really not a good one either. If you look at the Pink Noise spectrum he showed. it's boosted on bass. Which is dangerous, first because it could break your ears, then second because it will break your gear. Low frequencies have more power than mid/high.

For example, if a track has too much low, you'll hear perfectly, but if it has too much high, you probably won't notice it or it will be hard.

I'm not sure if the guy of the tutorial upload his pink noise, I'm using a random pink noise that I found in the internet and looking in any Eq spectrum actually the frequencies are pretty flat, but good that you said and the future views of this topic can check the frequencies of their pink noise in some EQ before start leveling their track channels.
If anyone is interesting I can upload my pink noise file.

Babasmas

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 04:01:14 pm »
This is not a bad idea, but it is really not a good one either. If you look at the Pink Noise spectrum he showed. it's boosted on bass. Which is dangerous, first because it could break your ears, then second because it will break your gear. Low frequencies have more power than mid/high.

For example, if a track has too much low, you'll hear perfectly, but if it has too much high, you probably won't notice it or it will be hard.

I'm not sure if the guy of the tutorial upload his pink noise, I'm using a random pink noise that I found in the internet and looking in any Eq spectrum actually the frequencies are pretty flat, but good that you said and the future views of this topic can check the frequencies of their pink noise in some EQ before start leveling their track channels.
If anyone is interesting I can upload my pink noise file.
Pink Noise are basically the opposite of White Noise.

In the pink noise (a real pink noise), there's a decrease of 3dB per octave. In the white noise, there's an increase of 3dB per octave. If there's not, this is definitely not a pink/white noise. It's not supposed to be flat.

MEDMAN

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2016, 04:21:26 pm »
This is not a bad idea, but it is really not a good one either. If you look at the Pink Noise spectrum he showed. it's boosted on bass. Which is dangerous, first because it could break your ears, then second because it will break your gear. Low frequencies have more power than mid/high.

For example, if a track has too much low, you'll hear perfectly, but if it has too much high, you probably won't notice it or it will be hard.

I'm not sure if the guy of the tutorial upload his pink noise, I'm using a random pink noise that I found in the internet and looking in any Eq spectrum actually the frequencies are pretty flat, but good that you said and the future views of this topic can check the frequencies of their pink noise in some EQ before start leveling their track channels.
If anyone is interesting I can upload my pink noise file.
Pink Noise are basically the opposite of White Noise.

In the pink noise (a real pink noise), there's a decrease of 3dB per octave. In the white noise, there's an increase of 3dB per octave. If there's not, this is definitely not a pink/white noise. It's not supposed to be flat.



Isn't literally flat, and oscilate the frequencies, but to me looks balanced, as any music when analised in spectrum the sub frequencies stand out.
Anyway I won't go full nerd, I just think that deserves a try using moderately, in the end is the ear that decides.  ;)

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 04:40:09 pm »


Isn't literally flat, and oscilate the frequencies, but to me looks balanced, as any music when analised in spectrum the sub frequencies stand out.
Anyway I won't go full nerd, I just think that deserves a try using moderately, in the end is the ear that decides.  ;)

Alright, i've read a bit more and it sounds like I was wrong. I'm litterally feeling stupid. i've class about that says but my book was wrong. Sorry -_-

i'll update my post...

deathy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 06:43:18 pm »
pink noise follows a fletch munson curve so it takes into account where our ears are more/less sensitive...


No, it doesn't.  Pink noise is 1/f, which means that the power drops as frequency increases.  Gray noise follows the equal loudness contour (the modern, more accurate version of the Fletcher-Munson curve), and I prefer it to pink noise quick mixing myself.


However, gray noise is specific to a decibel level, because the equal loudness contour is not static, it depends on the volume the sound is being heard at, so that means you have to mix for your intended volume level if you're going to do that.  I usually go for a compromise between home and club and mix for about 85dB.


That said, I don't do this as much as I used to, but it's a good trick.  The hard part is making the gray noise, because all of the gray noise I could find on the net was lying, it's not gray noise, and it doesn't follow the equal loudness contour.  Break out your 32 channel EQ and make your own.
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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 07:21:02 pm »
pink noise follows a fletch munson curve so it takes into account where our ears are more/less sensitive...


No, it doesn't.  Pink noise is 1/f, which means that the power drops as frequency increases.  Gray noise follows the equal loudness contour (the modern, more accurate version of the Fletcher-Munson curve), and I prefer it to pink noise quick mixing myself.


However, gray noise is specific to a decibel level, because the equal loudness contour is not static, it depends on the volume the sound is being heard at, so that means you have to mix for your intended volume level if you're going to do that.  I usually go for a compromise between home and club and mix for about 85dB.


That said, I don't do this as much as I used to, but it's a good trick.  The hard part is making the gray noise, because all of the gray noise I could find on the net was lying, it's not gray noise, and it doesn't follow the equal loudness contour.  Break out your 32 channel EQ and make your own.

have an up-vote, i must be remembering it wrong from what my college teacher told me

Dichotomy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2016, 08:00:25 pm »
Pink Noise are basically the opposite of White Noise.

In the pink noise (a real pink noise), there's a decrease of 3dB per octave. In the white noise, there's an increase of 3dB per octave. If there's not, this is definitely not a pink/white noise. It's not supposed to be flat.

White noise is flat. No increase or decrease of any kind.


pink noise follows a fletch munson curve so it takes into account where our ears are more/less sensitive...

No, it doesn't.  Pink noise is 1/f, which means that the power drops as frequency increases.  Gray noise follows the equal loudness contour (the modern, more accurate version of the Fletcher-Munson curve), and I prefer it to pink noise quick mixing myself.

However, gray noise is specific to a decibel level, because the equal loudness contour is not static, it depends on the volume the sound is being heard at, so that means you have to mix for your intended volume level if you're going to do that.  I usually go for a compromise between home and club and mix for about 85dB.

That said, I don't do this as much as I used to, but it's a good trick.  The hard part is making the gray noise, because all of the gray noise I could find on the net was lying, it's not gray noise, and it doesn't follow the equal loudness contour.  Break out your 32 channel EQ and make your own.

I agree with this correction. Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_noise wiki-verified. Ensure your spectrogram / FFT analyzer is in the same scale (linear vs. log) when making visual comparisons.

Apropos of this topic... a 'lil how to guide... http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec14/articles/pink-noise.htm. This is the same information in the video above, just written down with a few extra tidbits.

Grey noise seems arbitrary & personal to me. I don't see how it can be useful if the goal is exact and consistent reproducibility... for an individual's efforts, or for solidarity as an industry of content creators. I feel things like this dilute what would be an accepted technique into an artsy, intangible "feeling" that ultimately confuses newcomers to the discipline and places industry leaders in an "ivory tower." Also, this sort of "do what sounds good" approach feeds into other topics that negatively impact listeners... case in point, the loudness war.

deathy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2016, 08:15:12 pm »
Grey noise seems arbitrary & personal to me. I don't see how it can be useful if the goal is exact and consistent reproducibility... for an individual's efforts, or for solidarity as an industry of content creators. I feel things like this dilute what would be an accepted technique into an artsy, intangible "feeling" that ultimately confuses newcomers to the discipline and places industry leaders in an "ivory tower." Also, this sort of "do what sounds good" approach feeds into other topics that negatively impact listeners... case in point, the loudness war.


I'm not real sure I follow you here... the Equal Loudness Contour is science, not arbitrary or personal.  Could you please explain why you think this is not exact, and is based on an intangible "feeling?"
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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2016, 09:07:09 pm »
Grey noise seems arbitrary & personal to me. I don't see how it can be useful if the goal is exact and consistent reproducibility... for an individual's efforts, or for solidarity as an industry of content creators. I feel things like this dilute what would be an accepted technique into an artsy, intangible "feeling" that ultimately confuses newcomers to the discipline and places industry leaders in an "ivory tower." Also, this sort of "do what sounds good" approach feeds into other topics that negatively impact listeners... case in point, the loudness war.

I'm not real sure I follow you here... the Equal Loudness Contour is science, not arbitrary or personal.  Could you please explain why you think this is not exact, and is based on an intangible "feeling?"

Pink noise is naturally "scientific"... a computed output... also an observable, recurring, measurable phenomenon. The Equal Loudness Contours (ISO 226:2003) which vary by SPL, are the product of a scientific process... population sampling (that is: asking a lot of people what they think they hear). Since ELCs are dependent on the individual listener and the volume of playback, there is no "one" true grey noise.

If you and I were to visit the same audiologist, our evaluation of perceived loudness would undoubtedly be different. If we each then created grey noise based on this evaluation, they would differ... and be personal. You get booked at Space Miami and  Pacha New York, and they tell you the technical specifics of how their sound systems are tuned. I play at some club in my home-town, so I guess. SPL of the venue is unknown, so I make an arbitrary guess based on where I feel the SPL was the last few times I was there... 85db.

I am quite curious how a suggestion like "Break out your 32 channel EQ and make your own." could possibly yield exact, scientific, universally accepted results. I don't doubt that grey noise is useful in some regard... but calling it an exact method seems awry to me. That the Fletcher-Munson Curves were revised into ISO 226 at any point in time, I think, agrees with that notion.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 09:19:59 pm by Dichotomy »

deathy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2016, 11:18:30 pm »
Sorry, I wasn't recommending using your ears, I intend that you start with white noise then using the published official ISO curves to shape that noise into gray using a 32 band EQ.


A large enough sampling (which the original Fletcher Munson didn't have, but the ISO:226-2003 did have) results in something that is accurate enough for my needs when it comes to quick leveling.


All that said, using either of these for anything but quick leveling is not a good idea anyway.  Using pink noise will just mean each of your channels has exactly the same power - that doesn't feel like a desirable outcome to me.  Gray noise will just mean that each of your channels feels to the average person like it has the same power level - that also doesn't feel like a desirable outcome to me.


It's OK for just getting things to a good starting point, but from there, you need to focus on what the music needs.  I don't imagine there are going to be many songs where either having the exact same power levels, or perceived to have the exact same power levels, is going to actually work all that well.
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Dichotomy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2016, 12:21:11 am »
Sorry, I wasn't recommending using your ears, I intend that you start with white noise then using the published official ISO curves to shape that noise into gray using a 32 band EQ.

Let's have a link to help point people in the correct direction... and about the contour selection by venue SPL, how did you arrive at 85dB? What reference did you consult?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 07:48:17 am by Dichotomy »

deathy

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Re: Mixing quick tip with Pink Noise
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2016, 12:47:46 pm »
Venues actually tend more toward 95-105dB, not 85dB... though that is based on some random resources on the net (this is not new research, I built my gray noise a couple years ago)... 85dB was a compromise between club and (loudish) home stereo.


I can't really provide a link, as there was no resource that just said "here's how to make gray noise."  I had to figure it out myself.


I did misspeak slightly, though... you actually need to shape pink noise, not white noise.  It's important when going from SPL to digital that you still follow that 1/f  line.


Grab the ISO:226-2003 curve values - this can mean needing to pay for the ISO if you can't find the values.  I found them in a matlab thingy back when I made it, but can't find it online any more - if you can find something similar, I recommend that as a cheaper alternative.  I would paste them here, but it's a lot of data (most of it useless, as we're not going to be mixing for very much below 60dB SPL).

Next, grab yourself some pink noise, slap on a 32 band EQ, and adjust the channels to match the values from the ISO standard.  Depending on the range of your EQ, you may need to use two in parallel - my EQ has a range of -18 to 18, and the maximum range at 80dB is 37.16dB.  (Looking back at my spreadsheets, it was 80dB, not 85, that I used).  I highly recommend not using the values for 20Hz and 20KHz (and possibly 25Hz, your choice there, but I don't use it), as they are outlier values that will give your curve extremely harsh edges.


After that, you'll probably also want to add on a strong low pass around, say, 50Hz and a high pass around, say 15KHz, just to soften things a little bit further.


Finally, adjust the level so it's at 0dB, and there ya go, gray noise.


If you don't like 80dB, then you are of course quite free to choose a different value.  I actually have three gray noises that I built, 60, 80 and 100.


You can extrapolate the curves to any dB SPL value you want, but I'm not going to go into that here.


I am using this technique in the DJ software I wrote to measure all the tracks in my setlist's frequency spectrums, then at performance time, measure the level of the room (I am working on a realtime meter that uses a radio transmitter to send this directly to my laptop so that this part happens automatically), and adjust the curve of each track in real time to fit the room so that it can adjust the sound to the levels in the room... but that part is still in prototype stage, I don't use the room leveling yet when I play out.  I admit that I am not completely sold on using it all the time anyway, for the same reasons as what I detailed earlier about following the curve perfectly not being interesting enough to me.


Here's a screencap of what my gray noise looks like in ProQ2.  Note that the spectrum is rotated 4.5dB per octave to make it more readable, as is the standard with ProQ2 (and many other EQs).


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